Can Starmer survive? The wolves are circling in the Labour Party.

I’ve always had a bit of a crush on Andy Burnham.

This is not convincing me

Doodledog

Galaxy

I don't know what I feel about this.
I think Starmer became PM due to a rejection of the Tories rather than an endorsement of what he stood for. I am hoping this isn't more of the same - a rejection of Starmer rather than an endorsement of Burnham.

Well I, for one, would endorse Burnham. I suspect that most voters have more agency than you seem to credit us with, Galaxy. Of course we can only vote for who is available, so there is more than an element of that at play, but I do feel that AB would be good at offering a real alternative to both the authoritarian stance that KS has taken and to the terrifying prospect of a Reform government because he has both the personality and the principles that I can relate to.

Surely a lack of agency would be being unable to vote Doodledog.

Chosing to vote against an MP of one party rather than for the MP of another party in order to get the political outcome nearest to your thinking means that knowledge of our systems complexities have given us a greater feeling of our sense of control, our capacity to influence and our faith in our ability to chose. That is our sense of agency.

I think Andy Burnam would lose them the election.

Nor me. He often has politicians from Labour, Conservative and Lib Dems on his GB News programme and he treats them all respectfully. Usually they all end up having a good laugh together.

DaisyAnneReturns

Doodledog

Galaxy

I don't know what I feel about this.
I think Starmer became PM due to a rejection of the Tories rather than an endorsement of what he stood for. I am hoping this isn't more of the same - a rejection of Starmer rather than an endorsement of Burnham.

Well I, for one, would endorse Burnham. I suspect that most voters have more agency than you seem to credit us with, Galaxy. Of course we can only vote for who is available, so there is more than an element of that at play, but I do feel that AB would be good at offering a real alternative to both the authoritarian stance that KS has taken and to the terrifying prospect of a Reform government because he has both the personality and the principles that I can relate to.

Surely a lack of agency would be being unable to vote Doodledog.

Chosing to vote against an MP of one party rather than for the MP of another party in order to get the political outcome nearest to your thinking means that knowledge of our systems complexities have given us a greater feeling of our sense of control, our capacity to influence and our faith in our ability to chose. That is our sense of agency.

I think Andy Burnam would lose them the election.

Are you picking holes in the way I expressed myself, or making a point that is relevant to the discussion? I can't work it out from your post.

Glad it wasn't just me, I couldn't make head nor tail of it.
I was going to say do we know he will be less authoritarian than Starmer, it seems to be the go to stance at the moment. Starmers authoritarian approach was there from the beginning and I for one certainly chose to ignore some if it at the early stages, I won't do that again.

Ladyleftfieldlover

I’ve always had a bit of a crush on Andy Burnham.

Is it the eyelashes?😄

I'm in favour of Burnham, too. I like the principles of Mainstream Labour, Burnham has made a success of his Mayoralty and, I think, would be his own man, not so swayed by advisors and party movers and shakers...

Mind you, Rachel Reeves has to go, too. She's ridiculous as chancellor with her daft 'fiscal rules'. but I can't think of anyone to succeed her...

Are you picking holes in the way I expressed myself, or making a point that is relevant to the discussion? I can't work it out from your post. [Doodledog]

The idea that someone is suggesting that chosing to vote in one particular way is a loss of agency is, an attack, intentional or otherwise, on that person's perception of their own deliberate choice (their agency). So, on an N & P thread, it would be reasonable to assume, even if you are struggling to understand as you suggest, that it is intentional.

fancythat

Increible really, that Starmer has taken less than 18 months for people to be looking for a new Leader.

Only because you can’t turn the tv on without being told that Reform ( just remind me of how many MP’s they have or how many councillors have already been discredited for various misdemeanours) are going to form the next government. Say it enough times and people believe it.

True.

DaisyAnneReturns

^Are you picking holes in the way I expressed myself, or making a point that is relevant to the discussion? I can't work it out from your post.^ [Doodledog]

The idea that someone is suggesting that chosing to vote in one particular way is a loss of agency is, an attack, intentional or otherwise, on that person's perception of their own deliberate choice (their agency). So, on an N & P thread, it would be reasonable to assume, even if you are struggling to understand as you suggest, that it is intentional.

Eh?

I have read that out to three people in the room with me, and none of them have a clue what you mean. I do understand what I said, as do they, so I'm happy with that 🤷‍♀️.

For the benefit of those who don't know what I meant, for the third and final time I will say that I would support AB, and that those saying that doing so would just be a vote against KS would, in my case, be wrong. I am capable of thinking for myself, and would actively approve of an AB attempt at being PM (if he makes such an attempt) rather than passively seeing him as no more than better than the alternative.

If that's not clear enough to be understood, I'm not sure how else I can say it, but as it's just my opinion and not important in the grand scheme of things, I won't be losing sleep.

I understood what you meant and it was me you were 'disagreeing' with. I thought it was a good point but ( and don't take this the wrong way!) not necessarily needing pages of discussion.

I agree. Pointless and lengthy definitions of the use of the term 'agency' seemed like a personal attack.

I'm pleased you understood 😀. I was beginning to think I was going mad.

However considering the latest announcement I will now be personally driving Burnham to the doors of number 10.

Why is Shawn Woodward on GB news with Farage ? He was a Labour MP of a northern town years ago He wasn't appropriate kind of MP needed in the town out of touch with working class and not often in the town Why is he now seen by GB news as some kind of spokesperson He Shawn can't be getting back into politics surely

The mayor of Manchester is at least someone that might relate to the working class and labour voters

Galaxy

However considering the latest announcement I will now be personally driving Burnham to the doors of number 10.

I don't know what to think about ID cards. I can see arguments for and against and believe them both.

This is a link to a conversation with the journalist who wrote the interview with Andy Burnham which is generally thought to hsve sparked all the recent interest.

His view of both Andy Burnham and Keir Starmer, who he previously interested are worth watching.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsWSq7Q37YQ

It’s actually put me off Andy Burnham somewhat, I don’t think he has done himself any favours by speaking up now. He should have stuck to criticising Starmer/the government for their shortcomings without mentioning his own position in my opinion.

Oreo

Ladyleftfieldlover

I’ve always had a bit of a crush on Andy Burnham.

Is it the eyelashes?😄

Or the “topper”? 🤔

Casdon

It’s actually put me off Andy Burnham somewhat, I don’t think he has done himself any favours by speaking up now. He should have stuck to criticising Starmer/the government for their shortcomings without mentioning his own position in my opinion.

I wonder how the people of Manchester feel given that he now seems to be using his mayorship as a stepping stone to greater things? Hasn’t he recently committed to being mayor for several more years? I’ll be writing to my MP to point out that I voted for a Labour Party led by Keir Starmer and I shall continue to support him. Which doesn’t mean to say I won’t criticise the party when it’s appropriate. Isn’t the country sick of having a government that’s like a game of musical chairs leader wise? Burnham failed twice to become party leader but all he’s done in recent years is snipe from the sidelines and I don’t like that sort of behaviour, not when it’s due to having an ulterior motive.

Casdon

It’s actually put me off Andy Burnham somewhat, I don’t think he has done himself any favours by speaking up now. He should have stuck to criticising Starmer/the government for their shortcomings without mentioning his own position in my opinion.

Interesting Casdon. He has very different basic views to Starmer and I have to admit it's left me scratching my head.

His description of housing and the original view if council housing is something I've discussed with friends in the past. Structural change, proper structural change also interests me as does his possible willingness to work with other parties to ensure a majority vote is represented as well as a majority of seats. That would presumably lead on to PR.

Quite a bit more than that to absorb. I think I'll watch it again and take notes! It would be good to hear how others are hearing it too.

Casdon

It’s actually put me off Andy Burnham somewhat, I don’t think he has done himself any favours by speaking up now. He should have stuck to criticising Starmer/the government for their shortcomings without mentioning his own position in my opinion.

Me too Casdon, although I wasn’t particularly keen on him anyway - even less so now.

Whenever things look tough for KS, Burnham pipes up … look at me, look at me! He did this when Labour were in opposition.

I don’t like the way he’s currently coming across ‘holier than thou’ … ‘I don’t really want to challenge Starmer, but Labour MPs are pushing me do it’.

Rubbish! He’s tried to be the party leader twice. He wants it - I’d have more respect for him if he was up front and honest (!!!).

Either put up or shut up - this pot stirring does nobody any good (apart from Burnham’s own ego).

… and that’s from a northern lass through and through!

I didn’t vote for Andy when he stood for the leadership. I like him as our Mayor, he’s visible, available, hardworking and knows our area well. He was active in Gtr Manc throughout the election campaign.
I’m less impressed by him being interviewed in the Telegraph, undermining the party (not only Starmer), setting himself centre stage the week before conference.

There is talk of a Manchester mp standing down so Andy could stand. I’ve heard various rumours, including Graham Stringer who it’s said has health problems. Apologies if this is not so. His constituency is classic deprived inner city area. Reform Farrage have already said they’ll push the boat out anywhere Andy stands. He could lose to reform, we’d lose a good mayor in the process

He’s repeatedly stated commitment to his term. Repeatedly said he has no desire to return to Westminster, where it’s impossible to get things done. Poor show Andy, yes Starmer needs to be more visible on the home front, comms need a rocket but use your popularity to help get this govt in a better place