Racism is a result of poor psychological functioning

Oreo

growstuff

CariadAgain I'm not denying that kind of thing happens, but it seems that you're using it as an excuse (or at least a mitigating factor) for white on black racism?

Wouldn't it be better for everybody to be more tolerant rather than saying "Well, the other side did something, so I'll do it too". In fact, that takes me right back to the primary school playground, so maybe claims that racists are psychologically stunted in some way have a point.

You clearly haven’t understood anything from CariadAgain as she highlights the fact that even within the UK English people who don’t speak Welsh can be sidelined for jobs, even jobs that aren’t customer facing, or can be made to feel uncomfortable on purpose.

Thank you.

That is exactly what I am saying. As far as I was concerned when I moved here - and I still think that way - = The vast majority of people here are what I mean by British (ie English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish) and the way I define British is "What nationality were your parents?".

But.....it came as a surprise to me to find a noticeable number of people here regard me as a different race (even though both sides of my family are British going back many generations). As far as I'm concerned - people here are basically British in the main....but I have become very aware since moving here that there are a substantial proportion of people that will regard me as a different nationality - despite us both being "British - yep for generations". There is a phrase I'd never heard before I moved here - where someone can be described as "5th generation Welsh" and what is meant by that (as far as I can figure out) is "They are Welsh...and so were their parents and so were their parents before them....going back 5 generations = yep they're really Welsh". I understand the point - because my mother years back told me "I'm English, your father is English and that therefore means you are English" and I agree that is the way to define what nationality someone is basically.

It's maybe a tad easier for me than some - because my mother regarded herself as "Cornish" really - rather than "English". Yep...she was English/born in Devon/etc.....but that is how she thought. I really honestly don't know why - because she's someone no-one could have much of an in-depth conversation with.....but her husband/my father told me "The second your mother crosses the border between Devon and Cornwall she changes as soon as she is the Cornish side and she starts feeling at home". Me - I look at Cornwall and think "Bleak...it feels bleak to me" and I describe myself as "British" in Wales and "English" in England.

There are all sorts of "twists and turns" in that little set-up and I had to boycott the local paper here for quite some time - because a "local/LOCAL/////did you hear me say LOCAL?" guy here went drink-driving at lunchtime (middle-aged guy - so old enough to know better) and accidentally killed a young guy. I boycotted the newspaper because they were on HIS side!!!!!! and asking people to support what they described as "Well respected local businessman" !!!!!! I was horrified...and am very thankful the editor got made redundant not long after that - though she walked into a reasonable level "locals" job soon after. That's not all that story - but it was the start of it and I was gobsmacked at someone so in the wrong getting such support.

So - yep.....point being I regard them as same nationality as me - but that is not a shared viewpoint by many here. I'd say it's about 90% British here in this town I think - but it's widely seen (by both Welsh and English) as being "45% a race called English and 45% a different race called Welsh". That has taken a long time to click that that is how things are seen in some parts of the country - and I guess the same applies to much of Scotland and Ireland (which I do think of Ireland as a whole country and not really part of Britain personally and struggle with it being seen as two distinct parts).

But I've learnt to emphasise different parts of Me depending on where I am. Back in England = bring on the academic analysis of everything and all the new foods etc for me to try (yep...my city is proud of being just 6 months behind London). Here in Wales, on the other hand, and they accept the "fey" side of me and I can say "I KNEW something I've never been told logically - but I knew it" and they accept I have a level of intuition that does tell me things I have no logical way of knowing - but I do know it sometimes (and blinkin' useful it can be too....). I never mentioned that back in my own city - as I'd have soon been into great academic discussions about it....

I'm sorta working my way through a way of melding both aspects. But yep....fwiw - and Welsh and English are regarded as two separate races here - by most people on both sides of that equation.....

Lathyrus3

growstuff

escaped

The overwhelming view was frustration that nobody would listen when they tried to speak of their experiences.
And isn't that exactly why, when people feel exasperated and angry, they make more noise in order to be heard?
I've witnessed it here in France, where a nation of rational thinkers, (like Descartes, Voltaire, and Rousseau), has turned into a loud mass of dissatisfied protesters, who are equally violent and attack the police.

I repeat, rising emotions about racism often stimulate thought, which eventually calls for a revision of decisions that might lead to more desirable outcomes. It doesn't mean that everyone with something to say is racist or unintelligent. Not at all.

Which experiences are you talking about? What have people actually personall experienced? It would be good to know what you're actually talking about.

I thought my post was clear that what Im talking about is the view of the journalist on Radio 4 who attended the protest and talked to many people there.

I thought it was relevant to the debate to highlight the opinion of someone who was there and who had wide experience of many different protests.

Yes, the meaning was clear. What I want to know is what these people are actually frustrated about = personally. What do they want to talk about which nobody is listening to? Maybe none of them have first hand grievances - maybe they picked all their experiences up second hand - and maybe there are no first hand experiences.

Maremia

I wonder if there is an evolutionary reason for racism? It seems to exist the world over.

I think is more nurture than nature so maybe not, but cannot be sure. If is survival of the fittest I can see white supremacy fitting the bill though, with the historical empowering of predominantly white nations due to plundering and enslaving other peoples making them the strongest/fittest.
But racism can also be about fitting in with family and peers so that is definitely nurture, and I think accounts for most people in the UK who become racists. And then is sectarianism sometimes viewed through the lense of racism, where religion often becomes the flash point not to be confused with antisemitism and Islamophobia, which is definitely racism rather religious differences, because it is a whole people who are targeted as a homogenous group, given certain unpleasant traits/characteristics according to familiar racist tropes.
Am not sure if that helps but I do find what you have said interesting so had to stick my oar in 😁

CariadAgain When you've lived in Wales for as long as my ex-husband's family have done, maybe you'll begin to understand.

growstuff

Lathyrus3

growstuff

escaped

The overwhelming view was frustration that nobody would listen when they tried to speak of their experiences.
And isn't that exactly why, when people feel exasperated and angry, they make more noise in order to be heard?
I've witnessed it here in France, where a nation of rational thinkers, (like Descartes, Voltaire, and Rousseau), has turned into a loud mass of dissatisfied protesters, who are equally violent and attack the police.

I repeat, rising emotions about racism often stimulate thought, which eventually calls for a revision of decisions that might lead to more desirable outcomes. It doesn't mean that everyone with something to say is racist or unintelligent. Not at all.

Which experiences are you talking about? What have people actually personall experienced? It would be good to know what you're actually talking about.

I thought my post was clear that what Im talking about is the view of the journalist on Radio 4 who attended the protest and talked to many people there.

I thought it was relevant to the debate to highlight the opinion of someone who was there and who had wide experience of many different protests.

Yes, the meaning was clear. What I want to know is what these people are actually frustrated about = personally. What do they want to talk about which nobody is listening to? Maybe none of them have first hand grievances - maybe they picked all their experiences up second hand - and maybe there are no first hand experiences.

WellI dont know obviously. I wasn’t the one talking to them. I just caught what he was saying as I drove to the allotment. I’m sure it’ll be on podcast but I think he was summing up the opinions that he heard at the protest rather than relating specific experiences.

From the 10 minutes I caught it seemed to be a discussion about several difficulties Labour was facing and their causes.

Of course, his experience can be discounted too………

I think this psychologist enjoys publicity.

Which, of course, he is receiving right now.

Broadcasting House?

I don’t usually listen to Radio 4 at that time on Sundays. I can’t get the guest list to come up .

This is how military personnel are prepared for war.

Lathyrus3

In that he did not identify a “malaise” or “psychological ill health” but in the main, people who had concerns and who felt that they were being ignored or belittled.

I read it in entirely the opposite way . Where has he mentioned people being ignored or belittled? I have quoted the bits where he talks about psychological ill-health. Would you mind showing the bits about being ignored or belittled, please?

Lathyrus3

Broadcasting House?

I don’t usually listen to Radio 4 at that time on Sundays. I can’t get the guest list to come up .

I think this is the piece you are talking about.
It was on News at one on Monday. It’s about 14. 25 secs in.
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002jgp7

I have to keep checking which thread I'm on.
😆
I have to keep checking which country I'm in, what with just listening to King Charles' and Trump's speeches in French, and the analysis of their journalists!
Fascinating listening to what foreign onlookers are saying about different nations!

Not sure why the French reporter is broadcasting from Trafalgar Square when Charles and Trump are in Windsor, aren't they?

How does the French coverage differ from the UK (assuming you've seen both)?

Doodledog

Lathyrus3

In that he did not identify a “malaise” or “psychological ill health” but in the main, people who had concerns and who felt that they were being ignored or belittled.

I read it in entirely the opposite way . Where has he mentioned people being ignored or belittled? I have quoted the bits where he talks about psychological ill-health. Would you mind showing the bits about being ignored or belittled, please?

No , the journalist on the BBC. I was replying to growstuff.

petra

Lathyrus3

Broadcasting House?

I don’t usually listen to Radio 4 at that time on Sundays. I can’t get the guest list to come up .

I think this is the piece you are talking about.
It was on News at one on Monday. It’s about 14. 25 secs in.
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002jgp7

It was part if a much longer discussion. It took about 10 mins to get to the allotment and I came in n the middle and turned off before the end.

I’m just repeating what I heard the journalist say🤔

Well Ive tried to find it but the BBC wants me to sign in to access anything relevant so I can’t.

I was in the car for about 10 minutes sometime after nine n Sunday if anyone is that interested.

I only mentioned it because I thought it was interesting that his view of what he saw and heard was very different from whitewavemarks view of a quasi football mob.

Doodledog

How does the French coverage differ from the UK (assuming you've seen both)?

I can hear the actual speeches in English, whilst listening to the French translation and discussion. The funniest thing is the French interjections about how the President and the King are toasting with FRENCH champagne ... then a discussion about French superiority in drinks! 🍾 🥂 Each nation thinks they are the best!

Anyway, this isn't about the subject of the thread, so I'd better move on.
As I think was mentioned earlier, why should we be critical of the way in which people feel and react to what is going on around them? If it weren't for high emotions being stirred, then people might not think as much as they do, and consequently examine their beliefs in a reasonable manner. I don't hold with this anxiety theory, nor that all these prople are lacking in intelligence.

Oreo

growstuff

CariadAgain I'm not denying that kind of thing happens, but it seems that you're using it as an excuse (or at least a mitigating factor) for white on black racism?

Wouldn't it be better for everybody to be more tolerant rather than saying "Well, the other side did something, so I'll do it too". In fact, that takes me right back to the primary school playground, so maybe claims that racists are psychologically stunted in some way have a point.

You clearly haven’t understood anything from CariadAgain as she highlights the fact that even within the UK English people who don’t speak Welsh can be sidelined for jobs, even jobs that aren’t customer facing, or can be made to feel uncomfortable on purpose.

Yes, and I gave an example of that too when DH was told he was the best person an organisation had interviewed for a job but the policy was that they could not offer him the post because he did not speak Welsh, when he would not be dealing with members of the public anyway.

I am happy to absorb other cultures. A simple example of this is our national dish being curry. A child of the 60s, I loved the explosion of colour and spice into our culture.

I like my way of life though.

What causes the upset is when the balance is thrown by a vast wave that swamps our way of life by others. Whole areas of my home town taken over by those who did not want to integrate, but set up their own little enclaves, expecting to carry on as if they were still in their own countries.

Racism works both ways. Those who want to absorb my culture welcome - otherwise why are they here?

You might say it is because this is a safe place, but it is BECAUSE our culture made it so. Bring your own intolerant, outdated ideas and practices to try to impose them here, isolating into enclaves will destroy it.

I was not racist - I have immigrant friends and family whom I love - but we are too full to take any more of ANY race. Those coming have no idea how small and over-crowded an island this is.
I do say WAS because my tolerance for the aggressive insistence on changing to meet the needs of medieval outdated practices and cultures is very thin now, and I feel the safety of my children and grandchildren is under threat. This fear makes me far less tolerant and open.

Allira

Oreo

growstuff

CariadAgain I'm not denying that kind of thing happens, but it seems that you're using it as an excuse (or at least a mitigating factor) for white on black racism?

Wouldn't it be better for everybody to be more tolerant rather than saying "Well, the other side did something, so I'll do it too". In fact, that takes me right back to the primary school playground, so maybe claims that racists are psychologically stunted in some way have a point.

You clearly haven’t understood anything from CariadAgain as she highlights the fact that even within the UK English people who don’t speak Welsh can be sidelined for jobs, even jobs that aren’t customer facing, or can be made to feel uncomfortable on purpose.

Yes, and I gave an example of that too when DH was told he was the best person an organisation had interviewed for a job but the policy was that they could not offer him the post because he did not speak Welsh, when he would not be dealing with members of the public anyway.

Please note the very first clause of my post: "I'm not denying that kind of thing happens" ie I acknowledged that it was true and happened (sigh).

… we are too full to take any more of ANY race

It only seems over-crowded in some places because successive governments have failed to plan for exponential population growth and the land we have isn’t used efficiently.

The same problem would have occurred if people still had the same-sized famiies they had a hundred years ago. What we have instead is both migration and people living far longer than they did a hundred years ago. It’s not uncommon now to be a great-grandparent and see those great grandchildren grown to adulthood, needing their own homes.

A friend in her 70s moans repeatedly about the new housing development in her town but fails to recognise that her family is part of exponential population growth. Her parents are still alive in their 90s. She is one of four children. She and her siblings have all had three chidren who themselves have had at least two children. Nothing unusual in that perhaps but it’s still 2 + (4 x 3) + (12 x 2) = 38 people needing homes. Had everybody in her family only had two children that would be 2 + (2 x 2) + (4 x 2), only 14 people needing homes.

But because people are having fewer children, we now have an unbalanced population becoming increasingly top heavy with old people. In addition, 25% of working age people are not working.

Less than 10% of the UK's 60 million acre landmass is developed. That includes all buildings and infrastructure, road, rail, airports plus all the urban space, residential gardens, parks, sports pitches, golf courses etc.

The land given over to golf courses in the UK exceeds the size of Greater Manchester.

Meantime, we have an excess of farmland with farmers growing food that is not harvested as it isn’t economical to do. 3 million tonnes of food including around 30% of all the fruit and vegetables grown never reaches market as it doesn’t meet the aesthetics demanded by supermarkets and their customers.

Some sources claim that 50% of our food is produced in the UK. That’s misleading. It doesn’t mean it is grown here only that the final product is made here. Tomatoes are imported from say the Netherlands and Spain and are used to make soups, purees, pasta sauces etc in factories in that 10% of developed land. Same with tea. We don’t grow Yorkshire tea. It’s imported and processed in a factory in Harrogate in the 10% of urban space. In reality, about 80% of our food is imported.

If that 10% of developed land including green space currently supports 70 million people, it would only take a 1% increase to support another 7 million. The population of Greater Manchester is around 3 million. Again, the land given over to golf courses in the UK exceeds the size of Greater Manchester.

In addition, we already have around a million homes in England alone which are classed as long-term empty. They need to be brought back into use as permanent homes.

What we need is a vision for the future, investment and fit young men to restore or build the new homes and the infrastructure that a growing population needs.

We need to start joining the dots on this. Next time Reform’s Zia Yusuf describes migrants as fit young men of fighting age, I want someone to challenge him and point out these are also men who could be building the country’s future if we would only give them a chance.

And remind him too that he is the son of migrant parents who left a country in civil war. He loves to remind us that his parents, a doctor and a nurse, worked for the NHS. Why did they not stay and use their skills in Sri Lanka? He would not be where he is now but for the opportunities he has had in the UK. He built his fortune using family money as seed capital. Why does he not want others to have the same chances?

CariadAgain

White on black racism has not been mentioned by me. Now there's a thought for the day - someone has probably got to be pretty determined to see racism if they can see it where there isn't any of it....

There are some posters on here who must think about racism pretty much all the time, who seem to assume all those to the right must by default be racist. It seems to be all they think about!

FranP

I am happy to absorb other cultures. A simple example of this is our national dish being curry. A child of the 60s, I loved the explosion of colour and spice into our culture.

I like my way of life though.

What causes the upset is when the balance is thrown by a vast wave that swamps our way of life by others. Whole areas of my home town taken over by those who did not want to integrate, but set up their own little enclaves, expecting to carry on as if they were still in their own countries.

Racism works both ways. Those who want to absorb my culture welcome - otherwise why are they here?

You might say it is because this is a safe place, but it is BECAUSE our culture made it so. Bring your own intolerant, outdated ideas and practices to try to impose them here, isolating into enclaves will destroy it.

I was not racist - I have immigrant friends and family whom I love - but we are too full to take any more of ANY race. Those coming have no idea how small and over-crowded an island this is.
I do say WAS because my tolerance for the aggressive insistence on changing to meet the needs of medieval outdated practices and cultures is very thin now, and I feel the safety of my children and grandchildren is under threat. This fear makes me far less tolerant and open.

Excellent post, those coming here should integrate with our values and way of life, the problem is as you say they create enclaves. I also fear for the future for my grandchildren. I wish they could emigrate somewhere better.

There are some posters on here who must think about racism pretty much all the time, who seem to assume all those to the right must by default be racist. It seems to be all they think about.
I think you're getting close to what is being discussed here, even though it isn't exactly touched on in the OP. That an obsession about seeing racism where there is none, is just as prevalent and unwarranted as the excessive anxiety felt by those whose thinking patterns differ.