ID cards at long last

Granmarderby10

For some purposes a birth certificate is not sufficiently verifiable. It only proves you were born! - See my kafkaesque experience in my post earlier to prove my right to work to my employer of over 4 years!
Crazy old world.

Being on the electoral register is verifiable and was used when I needed to open a new bank account in the branch.
In the UK - along with council tax info etc.

To be honest, a birth certificate proves that somebody with a given name was born on a certain date. It doesn't prove that person is you. You can order a birth certificate of anyone from the GRO.

Coming back to this, a point I raised yesterday, as to migrants who have no papers, how would they access benefits etc. and Terribull: Growstuff stated "well they can't that's the whole point" I didn't ask you to elucidate, on that GS if you come back. Do you mean they would be eligible for immediate deportation? No one could be sure if an individual has destroyed their papers themselves, a third party had done that to them under duress, or they simply had to leave, for whatever reason without any. So deportation wouldn't really be fair for the asylum seeker who desperately needs a safe haven.

No, the people wouldn't be eligible for immediate deportation, if they're still seeking asylum BUT they aren't eligible to do paid work. This isn't even a law yet, so I have no idea of the finer details. I would imagine people who are found working without permission would have broken the law and, therefore eligible for deportation - however, that's just speculation.

growstuff

Coming back to this, a point I raised yesterday, as to migrants who have no papers, how would they access benefits etc. and Terribull: Growstuff stated "well they can't that's the whole point" I didn't ask you to elucidate, on that GS if you come back. Do you mean they would be eligible for immediate deportation? No one could be sure if an individual has destroyed their papers themselves, a third party had done that to them under duress, or they simply had to leave, for whatever reason without any. So deportation wouldn't really be fair for the asylum seeker who desperately needs a safe haven.

No, the people wouldn't be eligible for immediate deportation, if they're still seeking asylum BUT they aren't eligible to do paid work. This isn't even a law yet, so I have no idea of the finer details. I would imagine people who are found working without permission would have broken the law and, therefore eligible for deportation - however, that's just speculation.

If they truly want a safe haven, why don’t they just settle in the first country they land in. Why risk life & limb to cross the channel 😩

I was very much in favour of ID cards but now I am not. It could be a backdoor to having access to every single aspect of one’s life including bank accounts. Part of it is being developed in Romania one of the leading countries for cybercrime.
Check out this thread at Thread Reader App.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1971820562138968376.html

Granmarderby10

For some purposes a birth certificate is not sufficiently verifiable. It only proves you were born! - See my kafkaesque experience in my post earlier to prove my right to work to my employer of over 4 years!
Crazy old world.

Being on the electoral register is verifiable and was used when I needed to open a new bank account in the branch.
In the UK - along with council tax info etc.

Well there is that. P60s, bus passes, can’t think of anything else.

They will probably make them people exempt from having 🆔

Mt61

growstuff

Coming back to this, a point I raised yesterday, as to migrants who have no papers, how would they access benefits etc. and Terribull: Growstuff stated "well they can't that's the whole point" I didn't ask you to elucidate, on that GS if you come back. Do you mean they would be eligible for immediate deportation? No one could be sure if an individual has destroyed their papers themselves, a third party had done that to them under duress, or they simply had to leave, for whatever reason without any. So deportation wouldn't really be fair for the asylum seeker who desperately needs a safe haven.

No, the people wouldn't be eligible for immediate deportation, if they're still seeking asylum BUT they aren't eligible to do paid work. This isn't even a law yet, so I have no idea of the finer details. I would imagine people who are found working without permission would have broken the law and, therefore eligible for deportation - however, that's just speculation.

If they truly want a safe haven, why don’t they just settle in the first country they land in. Why risk life & limb to cross the channel 😩

In answer to MT61
1. Language 2. Family ties 3. No ID cards in UK so possible to live under the radar.
growstuff I think "sans papiers" in France are in a similar position and liable to deportation, though there has been some softening of the rules.

Whitewavemark2

Blimey this thread has a life if it’s own and has entirely disappeared down the rabbit hole.

The ID card is answering a problem that as far as I can see doesn’t exist. The law if upheld properly covers exactly what this superfluous bit of nonsense does.

Those of us as retirees and who will never work, don’t need one, neither does anyone who does not work for whatever reason.

It is merely postering to Farage and the anti-immigration contingent.

Trust you to come up with that

Possibly that

Mt61

Possibly that

Mamie

wwm2 is it not Labour that has come up with idea to sort out illegal migration. So sound like they too are they anti migration?

Mt61

wwm2 is it not Labour that has come up with idea to sort out illegal migration. So sound like they too are they anti migration?

Anyway it won’t work in a million years

glammagran

I was very much in favour of ID cards but now I am not. It could be a backdoor to having access to every single aspect of one’s life including bank accounts. Part of it is being developed in Romania one of the leading countries for cybercrime.
Check out this thread at Thread Reader App.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1971820562138968376.html

We must be careful. Digital IDs will be used to control every aspect of our lives

Governments are claiming that somehow passports, drivers licenses, and other forms of ID are not enough ... And that Digital ID's are ESSENTIAL for creating a safe and efficient society. Sorry to say, folks. It's a joke!

Digital IDs are our personal profiles. They will be linked to everything we do ONLINE and OFFLINE. They are the backbone of a social credit system, and they will be used to limit every aspect of our lives.

If all goes according to their plan, we will not be able to do ANYTHING without their digital ID.

This is the biggest threat to our liberty ever.

Mt61

Mt61

Possibly that

Mamie

I have been a migrant in France for 20 years and believe me I know the difference between the two systems for residence, taxation, health cover, and work.
We obtained our right to permanent residency cards because of Brexit and our dossier of required paperwork submitted was 3 inches thick.
ID cards are not just about work, they are needed for access to education, housing, health cover, work and employment protection.
You can't live here without one.

"I would imagine people who are found working without permission would have broken the law and therefore would be eligible for immediate deportation" but clearly not now because some already are working for unscrupulous bastard firms allowing them to do this, thus absolving those entities from employers' responsibilities towards their shadowy, exploitable non people and that's the way Deliveroo et al like it, cheap disposable labour Why can't these firms be sanctioned out of existence, do we want to live in a society where people are exploited by unscrupulous grabby corporations, just so food can be delivered to the door on a whim because people can't be arsed to go out and get it themselves and to have their cars all gleaming on their drives courtesy of a multitude of foreign lackeys? God how did we all manage before the proliferation of these pop up services? some a front for other nefarious dealings. I don't believe Identity Cards will cut down on illegal employment because to do that, as stated upthread,, we would have to move towards a cashless society and In my opinion that also should be resisted. Neither do I believe illegal workers would be deported, there would be an army of lawyers who step in on their behalf to impede such proceedings.

TerriBull

"I would imagine people who are found working without permission would have broken the law and therefore would be eligible for immediate deportation" but clearly not now because some already are working for unscrupulous bastard firms allowing them to do this, thus absolving those entities from employers' responsibilities towards their shadowy, exploitable non people and that's the way Deliveroo et al like it, cheap disposable labour Why can't these firms be sanctioned out of existence, do we want to live in a society where people are exploited by unscrupulous grabby corporations, just so food can be delivered to the door on a whim because people can't be arsed to go out and get it themselves and to have their cars all gleaming on their drives courtesy of a multitude of foreign lackeys? God how did we all manage before the proliferation of these pop up services? some a front for other nefarious dealings. I don't believe Identity Cards will cut down on illegal employment because to do that, as stated upthread,, we would have to move towards a cashless society and In my opinion that also should be resisted. Neither do I believe illegal workers would be deported, there would be an army of lawyers who step in on their behalf to impede such proceedings.

Why a cashless society? Business owners would need ID cards as part of the set-up process and employees would need them to work.
There obviously have to processes and checks in place.
Paying employees with cash and failing to pay NI and taxes are still illegal aren't they?

CariadAgain

Can you explain how they physically work please?

It seems to me that they are on a persons smartphone. If that is the case - a lot of people (including me) will not actually be able to have one anyway - as we don't have smartphones.

Even if the Government bought me a smartphone - they'd be wasting their money - as I've tried and one does have to have a more "technical" type mind to be able to learn to use them. I haven't - I've got a type of mind I actually prefer and find more useful overall (ie what I call an "umbrella mind" - meaning I take in the overall picture and make connections that I know a lot of other people wouldnt do).

It's not an intelligence thing either - as my erstwhile brother could use them - but I can't and I'm 50 IQ points higher than him. So, I'd expect that if only one of us could use one it would be me - but it ain't. Technology has to be VERY simple for me to be able to use it.

So I won't be having a smartphone and I would not dream of having a "chip" inserted in me = they'd have to have a death wish to try pushing that on me.

So how do people like me have identity cards then? Does the government shrug their shoulders and accept I'd have to be given a physical card I could haul out of my purse - eg something similar to a credit card? Because a "credit card" type thing or physical paper are literally the only ways I could have this...

To start with, no one is proposing inserting a chip in you. That's the stuff of science fiction and as things stand, it would take a huge shift in social opinion for it to happen.

Next, one really doesn't need to be "technically minded" to use a smartphone. Almost everyone has one, and they can't all be technically minded.

Added to that, an ID card would very probably be a physical card similar to other cards. That's what happens in France and I assume in other countries too

I heard on the radio that the prime use of ID cards will be for employers to check the status of potential employees and thus not in regular use for retired people.
I'm all for ID cards, most of Europe and much of the rest of the world already have them - I can't understand why people object, they're not that different to, say, driving licenses?
I can understand that people who break the law or who want to hide their identity might not want to have to produce one, but for the average law abiding citizen there isn't an obvious downside.

Our ID cards in France are physical cards with embedded fingerprints. They are used as proof of identity and confirm our status as legal residents. Our health cards have photographs. We are now able to store our health cards on our phones if we choose, to be scanned at doctors, hospitals and pharmacies for reimbursement. I imagine ID cards will eventually be stored on phones if we wish.
There are still lots of people using cheque books at checkouts!

Yes that might be the case for you, but I take it you landed there with your passport & other documentation? You didn’t get rid of it to claim asylum, did you?

Mt61

Yes that might be the case for you, but I take it you landed there with your passport & other documentation? You didn’t get rid of it to claim asylum, did you?

Sorry to mamie

Mamie

Our ID cards in France are physical cards with embedded fingerprints. They are used as proof of identity and confirm our status as legal residents. Our health cards have photographs. We are now able to store our health cards on our phones if we choose, to be scanned at doctors, hospitals and pharmacies for reimbursement. I imagine ID cards will eventually be stored on phones if we wish.
There are still lots of people using cheque books at checkouts!

Point is mamie, too much information on one ID to get into the wrong hands.
Didn’t tax get hacked a few years ago?
Scammers & Hackers are way ahead of any government, using AI, they are very good at what they do.
If you lot want ID then go for it, but many of us do not want it.

cc

I heard on the radio that the prime use of ID cards will be for employers to check the status of potential employees and thus not in regular use for retired people.
I'm all for ID cards, most of Europe and much of the rest of the world already have them - I can't understand why people object, they're not that different to, say, driving licenses?
I can understand that people who break the law or who want to hide their identity might not want to have to produce one, but for the average law abiding citizen there isn't an obvious downside.

There certainly is if you get hacked.

Mt61

Yes that might be the case for you, but I take it you landed there with your passport & other documentation? You didn’t get rid of it to claim asylum, did you?

Yes of course I had my passport, but at that time I also had the right to live in France as a national of a country that was a member of EU.
After Brexit we all had to apply for the right to residence and we received ID cards under a special arrangement.
I don't know the number of "sans papiers" in France, but the systems for immigration have been in place for a long time. We saw them first hand at the immigration centre.

Tony Blair has been lobbying hard for this again having failed first time round. The tech company who will “own” this is Metaverse run by none other than ……… Euan Blair.