Lisa Nandy

Doodledog

Good post.

The only reason I can see for why that might not work is that there are some transwomen who won't believe that they are not, in fact, women, so would refuse to co-operate. There are also those who like being able to take advantage of male strength in sport and so on, who wouldn't be happy with a level playing field.

And therein lies the problem.

The refusal, sometimes violent, to cooperate.

The false claim that they are de facto, women, now with the support of politicians like Lisa Nandy.

The endless claims even on GN, that ”you can’t tell” which totally miss the point that if you need to lie, by action or word, you are not supporting women’s right to have safe female spaces or sports free from males.

And the loss of opportunity for male athletes, failed or not, to win prizes to which they are not entitled.

There are also those who like being able to take advantage of male strength in sport and so on, who wouldn't be happy with a level playing field.
Possibly those who have failed previously in men's sports.

I can't help thinking that if we all used sex and gender as the words were intended (ie meaning very different things) then everyone would be happy. Transpeople could 'live as' whatever their idea of the opposite sex entails, and be accepted as trans.

The important thing would be that they (and everyone) understand that this means that they stick to their biological sex when it comes to single-sex spaces and activities, so no men in women's sport, female changing rooms or the groups such as the WI. If someone wanted to set up optional mixed-sex versions, there's no reason why they shouldn't, but women should be able to join a women's group and know that they are amongst other women, get changed without men watching and play in sports teams suitable for their body shape and size.

The only reason I can see for why that might not work is that there are some transwomen who won't believe that they are not, in fact, women, so would refuse to co-operate. There are also those who like being able to take advantage of male strength in sport and so on, who wouldn't be happy with a level playing field.

And that case is still dragging on.

Most trans cases seem to centre on the demand of trans women, that is men, to invade lavatories and cloakrooms intended for biological women. Reduced to Reception class level.

MayBee70

I think the trans issue is a very complicated one and there are far more people with gender issues than I ever realised. I’d imagine that Lisa, who seems to be a very active constituency MP has trans constituents that she is representing.

Of course she nay have a tiny minority of constituents who are transgender and they need to be protected against abuse.

However, that changes nothing as women's rights and safe spaces must be protected too and, presumably, Lisa Nandy also has many women in her constituency.
At least as long as it remains her constituency because women now have the vote too!

I'm sure Lisa Nandy understands what homosexuality is, the clue being homo=same. How can she reconcile an understanding of biological sex in that situation but deny it when a man says he's magically become a woman. At the start of the transgender issue it was always said gender and sex are different things but deliberate blurring of the terms has been employed. The doctor in the Sandie Peggie case insists that as he is human he's biological and as he's a woman he's female and therefore a biological female. And that's a doctor, who presumably has studied biology or is that not essential these days?

Due to cancer I have had most of my "female" parts removed. I joke that I'm now an android, I'm definitely not trans or male. Being male or female is as much to do with chemistry as body ( if not more) and we should all accept our true nature and that of others.

MayBee70

I think the trans issue is a very complicated one and there are far more people with gender issues than I ever realised. I’d imagine that Lisa, who seems to be a very active constituency MP has trans constituents that she is representing.

But representing them in a way that opposes women’s rights?

Do you think she has any women in her constituency.

I think the trans issue is a very complicated one and there are far more people with gender issues than I ever realised. I’d imagine that Lisa, who seems to be a very active constituency MP has trans constituents that she is representing.

I very much doubt that LN needs a biology lesson. I think there seems to be some sort of magical thinking around this, mixed with the results of the way the language has been corrupted so that nobody really knows what anyone else is talking about.

'To me, 'A man is a woman if she says she is' is saying that it is possible for someone to change sex with the use of magic words. It is not possible, and can never be so, and suggests that those who disagree don't understand biology.

To someone else (possibly including LN, I don't know as I don't live in her head) it might mean that the concept of a woman is some sort of fiction, unconnected with biology but the result of so-called 'gender', so anyone who 'feels like a woman' is one. In that way of thinking, biology is secondary to 'feelings', so you can understand about gametes and so one, but still maintain that a woman is someone who thinks they are a woman. A bit like saying a poet is someone who writes poetry, however awful it is.

I find that sort of erasure frightening, as if we don't know what a woman is, we can't protect ourselves.

Allsorts

Thought all this was sorted. It is biological sex that determines what sex you are regardless of what you would like to be.

Yes, it is and many sporting bodies have taken up the no males in female sports position.

There’s a lot of Munchausen’s by proxy displayed by an increasing number of parents.

Thought all this was sorted. It is biological sex that determines what sex you are regardless of what you would like to be.

Perhaps Lisa is aligning herself with the Greens who, according to their chief, want to protect trans rights.

I wrote to Zack Polanski asking if he and his party also wanted to protect female rights? (female in case he confuses female and woman.)
rights.
In which case, could he please identify which trans rights he was vowing to protect, that didn’t involve abrogating female rights.
The response was . . .
Or maybe I’m being unreasonable and I should allow more than a fortnight for a reply.

GrannyGravy13

I think Ms Nandy requires tuition in Human Biology…

So do masses of people IMO. Regardless of intelligence and/or level of education

I was astonished a few years ago to realise that dh had no idea about photosynthesis - he’d never heard of it - a process so fundamental for life on earth. He has a BSc degree and professional qualifications, but had attended an elite and very academic boys’ school where - unless they were planning to be medics - biology was considered a ‘girls’ subject’.

More recently, after some daft pronouncement by a senior politician re the trans issue, dh said he supposed ‘it might be possible’ for a biological male ‘to grow a cervix’.

Cue a lesson from me!

Chardy

There's a lot of ignorance about what people go through to transition, and the different stages of transitioning.

In some quarters that's true. Lots of people assumed that transwomen for example all had full surgery, when in fact very few do.
Transition ranges from only announcing your change of identity through to cross sex hormones (neither of which change your sex) up to full surgery (which also doesn't change your sex)

Galaxy

I think you can usually tell by their behaviour, they don't interact with transwomen as if they are women they interact with them as if they are extra special men.

👍👍👍

Fat fingers! Don't not do.

Of course it's nonsense in biological terms but I do think Nandy is stupid, merely deluded if she thinks mouthing political support for a tiny minority of politicied trans people is going to help her squeak through at the next Election or lead to a resounding Labour victory. Labour are toast unless they tackle key issues like the cost of living, housing, NHS, defence, anti-Semitism and, yes, immigration and stop wasting time posturing on Palestine.

I think you can usually tell by their behaviour, they don't interact with transwomen as if they are women they interact with them as if they are extra special men.

Galaxy

They don't believe, not for one moment.

I wouldn't have thought so, but if not, why pretend? I suppose it's possible to believe that sex is a state of mind. To me, it flies in the face of reality, but it's not for me to say what someone else believes. I still say it's nonsense though.

Chardy

There's a lot of ignorance about what people go through to transition, and the different stages of transitioning.

No-one can change their DNA.

Chardy

There's a lot of ignorance about what people go through to transition, and the different stages of transitioning.

There’s a lot less ignorance than there used to be.
A lot more information about the need for psychological support prior to physical transitioning.
A lot more information about the need for children to be old enough to understand the irreversible impact of drugs and surgery on their future life.
A lot more knowledge about the drugs and surgical treatment involved.

The different stages of transitioning are also well publicised.

Not on here there isn't. Many of us have been involved in this issue in one way and another for over a decade.

There's a lot of ignorance about what people go through to transition, and the different stages of transitioning.