British Indians still aborting baby girls in UK

I think there are quite a few examples of medical staff not treating pregnant women well. There are two of us on this thread, and there is an ongoing enquiry into numerous NHS trusts with regard to maternity care. This doesn't mean that all healthcare professionals treat women poorly, it just means there are some issues.

My third baby somehow arrived despite using effective contraception. I declined the amnio as I knew I would continue the pregnancy. I’d have chosen termination at some time in my life but not then when i was well and in a safe happy marriage.
I agree that medics should have the option not to take part. The idea of desperately trying to save the life of a tiny very early baby alongside late termination is distressing

Casdon

They are fortunately not common, but the most traumatic abortions for staff are those of a foetus with no abnormalities who is on the cusp of viability as a live birth if given neonatal care though foxie48, rather than those with abnormalities such as you describe. Some doctors refuse to be involved in an abortion in those circumstances, and it is also right that they should have that option. It’s a minefield.

Casdon it is all extremely sad isn't it? tbh I'd rather not compare one cause of misery with another and try to evaluate which is more traumatic. My last post was in reply to the suggestion that doctors do what is "best for them" and earlier posts saying that late abortions should not take place. In an ideal world I would like to see every pregnancy being a planned one but as my last daughter was conceived thanks to a contraceptive failure I know firstly we don't live in an ideal world and secondly the only absolute way of avoiding pregnancy is complete abstinence. I also try not to judge others who have to made the difficult decision of having a late termination.
"In the UK (England, Wales, Scotland), abortions are generally permitted up to 24 weeks, but after 20 weeks,
they usually require specific legal grounds, often relating to the pregnant person's life/health or serious fetal abnormalities (serious/fatal anomalies), with services available in specialist NHS hospitals" AI generated

Thank you foxie for your detailed response. I hope I never allowed personal views get in the way of helping parents, often single pregnant women find the least worst decision in harrowing circumstances

They are fortunately not common, but the most traumatic abortions for staff are those of a foetus with no abnormalities who is on the cusp of viability as a live birth if given neonatal care though foxie48, rather than those with abnormalities such as you describe. Some doctors refuse to be involved in an abortion in those circumstances, and it is also right that they should have that option. It’s a minefield.

"On the whole they will be doing what they think is best, but best for them, not necessarily what is best for their patients/clients/constituents." Doodledog

I think my daughter would be furious to read a comment like this. As a doctor she would say that her first concern is always for her patient. As an anaesthetist who frequently works in obstetrics, she is the person who is at the head end of the mother having a CS regardless of if it's with a GA or a spinal. She is also the doctor who is supporting the unfortunate woman who has to undergo a late termination and witnesses not just the trauma of such a procedure to the expectant mother and her family but also the trauma suffered by everyone, including herself, in the medical team involved. Abortions in the third trimester are thankfully fairly rare and are never performed without adhering to the law, the welfare of the patient and being absolute necessary. It is a sad fact that babies with severe internal malformations can survive in utero but cannot survive once outside the uterus. Thankfully these issues are usually found during the 20 week scan, which can take place between 18 and 21 weeks. These abortions are both extremely sad for the parents and also extremely unpleasant. However, occasionally these defects are not picked up until a 28 week scan is done (perhaps because of a concern over a lack of growth). I wonder how many of you would encourage your own daughter to carry a baby for a further 12 weeks that will not live for more than an hour or so outside the womb? Regardless of what the mother decides to do, it is a harrowing experience for absolutely everyone.

Having had the experience, traumatising, of dealing with abortion as a professional, this question popped up more often than not. Getting rid of baby girls, pandering to the misogynistic cultures involved. Once asked, following dating scan, whether it was a girl, I was able to answer that you can't at 8wks tell. 18 to 22 weeks is the norm. As for BPAS, least said the better. Dept of Health makes the strategy, not them.

^ On the whole they will be doing what they think is best, but best for them,..^

That’s an extraordinarily cynical view of the caring professions

Galaxy

We of course impose a moral framework via the law though.

It's rare that 'we' do, though. Most laws are decided on by others - often those we have voted against - and are interpreted by entirely unelected people such as doctors or social workers, who have their own prejudices and beliefs. On the whole they will be doing what they think is best, but best for them, not necessarily what is best for their patients/clients/constituents.

Galaxy

We of course impose a moral framework via the law though.

But which morality and how strongly it’s imposed are constant points of debate.

We of course impose a moral framework via the law though.

Surely the person most affected is the baby.

I'm not sure how benign terminating a baby at nine months gestation could be. There might be reasons but that doesn't make it benign although I looked it up and the explanation wasn't explicit eg removing the products of conception rather than a viable baby.

Doodledog

I see this as one of those situations (such as assisted dying) where I can see all points of view, but feel that the individual decision has to be made by the individual person at the heart of it - in this case the pregnant woman. Imposing someone else's moral view is, IMO, immoral.

Nobody should be coerced, and I have no problem with medical staff opting out of taking part if they have conscientious objections (I would struggle to do it myself), but the option should be there for those who need it.

I agree with this. You’ve captured well how complex and personal these situations are, and why the decision has to rest with the individual most affected. In cases like this, imposing someone else’s moral framework doesn’t feel ethical to me either. I also agree that while no one should be coerced into participating, the option needs to exist for those who need it.

You can easily google it, I did to find out. No surprises, it's as benign as it could possibly be of course. But in the article I posted above, it does make it clear "why".

But Jane is right. Far far more support and help are needed

However, how much of this is relevant to the O/P - except threads are bound to drift of course.

You're probably right Casdon.

theworriedwell

No one seems willing or able to explain how a very late abortion happens.

Search ‘foeticide meaning UK’ theworriedwell, although you may wish you hadn’t.

No one seems willing or able to explain how a very late abortion happens.

I see this as one of those situations (such as assisted dying) where I can see all points of view, but feel that the individual decision has to be made by the individual person at the heart of it - in this case the pregnant woman. Imposing someone else's moral view is, IMO, immoral.

Nobody should be coerced, and I have no problem with medical staff opting out of taking part if they have conscientious objections (I would struggle to do it myself), but the option should be there for those who need it.

Good comment JaneJudge

There are quite severe genetic conditions that can’t be picked up until very late in the pregnancy

I wish people would fight more for children and adult services for as much as they defend the unborn

I can’t imagine a late scenario that didn’t involve very vulnerable parents. It’s likely the medical team would call in the sw team, who would help the mum, parents, look at adoption, or a kinship carer

SusieB50

Years ago I worked in the NHS in a high Asian populated area. There was a notice in the Antenatal ultrasound area , it stated that “you will not be informed of the sex of your baby at this scan” Nowadays it would not be so easy to keep to this as the scans are much clearer and the patient can often see . My SiL was told she was having a boy at her scan much to her delight after two girls - wrong !!

I used to live in an area with a large Asian community. When I had my first scan for my first born , there too was a notice saying please don’t ask the sex of your child . The reason given was that the scans weren’t accurate.

Wyllow thanks but I'd still be interested to know what happens. I just can't get my head round how a nine month pregnancy is terminated. Then again maybe I don't want to know.

theworriedwell

How would a termination at 8 or 9 months work? Is the baby killed first or delivered alive and left to die. I don't know how either could happen.

This doesnt directly answer your question, but is accurately and extremely informative about the "why's" of post 20 weeks abortions - I do beg people to read it (the huge majority are dangers/illness to the foetus or mother, and other reasons need to be understood imo?

www.bpas.org/media/dmjf3y0l/why-do-women-need-abortions-after-20-weeks.pdf