Is it wrong to identify as something you aren’t?

Allira

^So, we generally benefit from that breadth of experience - but apparently not if you happen to disagree personally with what someone has said?^

That's exactly why we may disagree, surely? Because we all have different experience?

Thats actually a complex point. It would seem, on the surface, one cannot argue with that.

Except I've had too many years teaching people to understand conceptual art or just non representational art or encouraging people to express themselves through art, however little experience they have. ...discussing boundaries of what art is, and what makes good or acceptable art, showing people different example to make my point, and have used my own body for work for one piece that went in an international art/textile show.

It depends what we are discussing. If the subject we are discussing - eg, one Grayson Perry work -is being taken out of a whole context, then it does matter if we do or don't have broader knowledge, *because it may or may not offer a completely different context and reason for and understanding of that one work.
One worth being informed about.

Otherthread today for example we have had a poster pointing out that as a Historian (Maizie) she has done detailed research into mining in County Durham, it is valid to at least consider that what she says is of particular value.

If we have someone caring for a DH who has had a serious stroke or cancer, we listen - that person might have something valuable to "hear" if we encounter the same experience. At the moment there is an ongoing discussion on Divorce in later life. Not relevant to many, but of great value to those concerned.

Or the sadness of Estrangement - its accepted that those who have gone through it may have a great deal to offer those who are facing it for the first time.

Or if we are discussing multiculturalism - full of complexities, it matters if we are Christian or Jewish or Muslim, or have worked in Social Work for years in a multi-cultural context.

It informs our opinion, and it helps others see "where we are coming from".

Gransnet Loses The Plot.

Discuss

Poster deflects.

Discuss.

Clearly a snowbound day..
Advise a heave ho to the gritter thread...

Wyllow3

Poster deflects.

Discuss.

Poster deflects.

The thread has certainly done that, Wyllow!

Man breaks the law by dressing up as a serving Rear Admiral, pleads guilty, is fined £500 and loses whatever reputation he might have had.

Is there a lesson here?
Yes. Don't break the law by wearing the uniform of a member of HM Forces in public - and carrying a sword too.

Don't masquerade as a policeman, doctor, or other public official either.

Yes we've definitely been "around the houses"

But it did send me upstairs to look out bits and bobs on the- not- the-thread- topic and much enjoyed.

butterandjam

Oreo

I suppose it was a bit of fantasy that went too far.He had quite a prestigious past didn’t he and maybe in retirement he needed to continue to be admired? Am certain he really regrets it, not a big fine really but it’s the shame of it that will haunt him.

He had quite a prestigious past didn’t he

? No.

He's a retired teacher.

He did have quite a prestigious past.He was a teacher at a well known public school and then went on to be the rowing coach at Christ Church College in Oxford where he was much liked it seems.

Oreo

butterandjam

Oreo

I suppose it was a bit of fantasy that went too far.He had quite a prestigious past didn’t he and maybe in retirement he needed to continue to be admired? Am certain he really regrets it, not a big fine really but it’s the shame of it that will haunt him.

He had quite a prestigious past didn’t he

? No.

He's a retired teacher.

He did have quite a prestigious past.He was a teacher at a well known public school and then went on to be the rowing coach at Christ Church College in Oxford where he was much liked it seems.

Teacher, taught rowing.
Well, not that prestigious!

Teacher, taught rowing.
Well at least that’s a connection with water.

Wyllow3

Oreo

Of course I don’t ‘have the benefit of a fine art training’ maybe thankfully in this case.

What I think is that gransnetters have a real wealth of both academic and work based and home based knowledge and experience -all as valid as each other -to bring to gransnet. Maybe they come from an SW background. Maybe they have had to care for people all their lives. Maybe they have lived in difficult marriages, or have chosen to live alone.

Some outsiders view Gransnet as "older women gossiping" when in fact we all have long lives that have brought us those experiences to bear on what we are talking about. and sometimes to give super advice and support in the help or AIBU threads. And most of us have at one time or another benefitted from another experiences or qualifications.

So, we generally benefit from that breadth of experience - but apparently not if you happen to disagree personally with what someone has said? Or decide to try and use someone's being abused as a weapon against them? is that what we are really about?

What on earth are you talking about?
I disagree with your attitude that because you admire this man’s art he can go around looking as he does in that pic, dressed as a woman or a girl with a dildo poking out.
Having a background in art or anything else doesn’t in any way explain or ameliorate that dope indulging his fetish in public and at a children’s charity event at that!
All it means is that this is a real case of The Emperor’s New Clothes.

Mollygo

^Teacher, taught rowing.^
Well at least that’s a connection with water.

😂😂😂

He wasn’t a shelf stacker at Tesco in the past Allira and a Public School then an Oxford College seem quite prestigious to me.

Which makes it all the more strange that he wanted the kudos of a military uniform, and an Admiral no less.

Anyway, he has now paid the price hasn’t he? Not the fine so much as the shame of it.

Iswym, a good job but not what I'd call prestigious.

Self-esteem problems? Strange that he needed to do this.
He's not the only one, though.

Allira

Iswym, a good job but not what I'd call prestigious.

Self-esteem problems? Strange that he needed to do this.
He's not the only one, though.

That’s because you go carousing with an Admiral😜

Oreo

Allira

Iswym, a good job but not what I'd call prestigious.

Self-esteem problems? Strange that he needed to do this.
He's not the only one, though.

That’s because you go carousing with an Admiral😜

Yes, we shall have a little tipple together this evening.
Oops, the sun is over the yardarm already! 🍸

Men pretending to be military is not uncommon - maybe women also but I've never heard of that. The ones I'm aware are men pretending to be soldiers.

One man used to mix regularly with the soldiers in pubs in Hertfordshire where my nephew is based, picking up anecdotes, names and ranks, and other bits and pieces until he could pass himself off as an ex soldier. He came unstuck eventually when he recounted an anecdote as if he had been there and one of the men listening had been there, and started asking questions about him. No idea why he did it but the men he mixed with were not amused.

Oreo

butterandjam

Oreo

I suppose it was a bit of fantasy that went too far.He had quite a prestigious past didn’t he and maybe in retirement he needed to continue to be admired? Am certain he really regrets it, not a big fine really but it’s the shame of it that will haunt him.

He had quite a prestigious past didn’t he

? No.

He's a retired teacher.

He did have quite a prestigious past.He was a teacher at a well known public school and then went on to be the rowing coach at Christ Church College in Oxford where he was much liked it seems.

To me, none of the above qualifies his past as "prestigious "

The naval deception was spotted by numerous people, which suggests he's intrinsically a second rate failure.

Not unknown even in well known public schools /universities.

Nothing that I have read suggests he was a failure at all and he had very good well paid jobs even if posters don’t regard them a prestigious!
He also had a really lovely house in Wales apparently .
I can’t see any reason for him to do what he did other than the reasons he gave to the police.

". . . I find it irritating that a man whose pretence causes offence to another man can be taken to court be fined £500 whilst other men who cause offence to women . . . " etcetera

If someone dresses up as a fake high-level naval officer and is arrested for it, it is not because he has offended someone, it is because an officer of that level has the authority to give orders to hundreds - thousands - of other officers and ratings to take their warship to a certain location and attack a port. He could order them to act as pirates to capture a craft at sea belonging to another country. It could be carrying a valuable cargo - oil, perhaps?

If one man gets away with it, what is to stop an aggressor trying to con sailors into firing their guns on a boat, by pretending to be a superior officer telling them it is about to invade their homeland, or that it is carrying an illegal cargo? Unlikely? Probably - but possible. A lot of things that we thought were impossible do actually happen.

^ If one man gets away with it, what is to stop an aggressor trying to con sailors into firing their guns on a boat, by pretending to be a superior officer telling them it is about to invade their homeland, or that it is carrying an illegal cargo? Unlikely? Probably - but possible. A lot of things that we thought were impossible do actually happen.^
Elegran your argument above perfectly explains why no man should get away with claiming to be someone he isn’t, including claiming to be a woman.

If one man (who means no harm and is just indulging his fantasy) gets away with it, what’s to stop others, with more harmful intent using that as a excuse for doing exactly the same thing.

Thanks for your post!

Doodledog

Galaxy

Just so we can be clear on his art. He is wearing a dildo to a childrens charity fundraiser.
I have a different interpretation to his art that is all.

Yes. I think GP is a good artist, and his TV programmes are intelligent and thought-provoking. All well and good. But his behaviour when it comes to dressing like that in front of children is not acceptable, and it is behaviour that matters when it comes to the law.

We must be clear about one thing, tho I have no desire to go back to the subject.

Doodledog, it was a posh celeb charity fundraiser in 2007.

No children were there: it was not in front of children

Spiked, where it recently was recently talked about in august(they chose to make an issue of it 18 years later) confirms that,
as does a resulting discussion on Mumsnet (Yes. all checked out).

I checked the picture out. Frankly he just looks very silly and it's rubbish art stuff on that occasion. but no children were there nor harmed by it.

Well, I' don't get it', and I most certainly do not want it.
Grayson Perry has a degree of talent and a fascination with the penis as a decorative motif, but it is his strange cross -dressing, peculiar sexual orientation, and above all his skill at self-publicity, that pitchforked him into fame.

It would be interesting to see a retrospective of his work in twenty years time and how it is judged then.

Eazybee 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻