Matt Goodwin

Oreo

Cossy the thing is…that very many haven’t integrated at all.
Which is why men are seen in polling stations telling their wives how to vote, the honour killings which still go on and the wife beating.

Oreo but my point is I speak from direct lived experience, across many years.

Yes I completely accept some Muslim families don’t integrate and that some Muslim women are both beaten and killed.

I utterly condemn this.

However we certainly have our own fair share of White British men doing similar evil and appalling things, we have white police officers raping and killing white women, a well respected GP killing off his female patients for financial gain, a white married couple sexually abusing, then killing females, including their own flesh and blood.

I could go on, but I’m sure you get my point.

Like it or not, there are evil, vile people in all races, faiths, nationalities and of all colours, I will keep saying this until people stop simply picking out certain groups of people, when crimes are committed by all cohorts.

Cossy

Oreo

Cossy the thing is…that very many haven’t integrated at all.
Which is why men are seen in polling stations telling their wives how to vote, the honour killings which still go on and the wife beating.

Oreo but my point is I speak from direct lived experience, across many years.

Yes I completely accept some Muslim families don’t integrate and that some Muslim women are both beaten and killed.

I utterly condemn this.

However we certainly have our own fair share of White British men doing similar evil and appalling things, we have white police officers raping and killing white women, a well respected GP killing off his female patients for financial gain, a white married couple sexually abusing, then killing females, including their own flesh and blood.

I could go on, but I’m sure you get my point.

Like it or not, there are evil, vile people in all races, faiths, nationalities and of all colours, I will keep saying this until people stop simply picking out certain groups of people, when crimes are committed by all cohorts.

Whataboutery

How many is 'many'? Not a daft question.
It is being used against immigrants who are alleged to not be integrating properly.
Are there actual verifiable statistics on the number of immigrants who don't integrate into British society?

Whataboutery 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

If you say so Meandrogrog, with respect, you’re clearly going to comment with sarcasm or deny or accuse me of something whatever I post.

I suggest we simply agree to disagree with most of our views, beliefs, opinions and moral standpoint and think ourselves fortunate that we live in a country where we can (almost always) share our thoughts without recourse.

I am interested in what you mean by ill informed prejudice. It does come across as you meaning anyone who disagrees with you!
No, I mean ill-informed prejudice. The sort of thing we see in FB copy and pastes like the one currently on here about how pensioners will have to give up bedrooms, and how they are so much worse off than previous generations were. It's not a question of agreeing or not - it's a question of accuracy. There is a lot of that sort of thing around. People are all too happy to pass them on without informing themselves as to whether they are true or not, and all too many others are willing to believe them, and feel even more aggrieved than they do already.

I agree with you that too many people feel overlooked, however, and have said so on here for years. I've felt like that since the Brexit referendum. I voted Remain, but was annoyed by the way Leave voters were called 'thick' and racist. Some probably were, to be fair, and there was as much name-calling in the other direction (Remoaners, even Traitors), but it was very divisive, largely because people weren't listening to one another or informing themselves, but latching onto 'preserve sovereignty' and 'protect our borders' and so on, without finding out what that would mean in practice.

I don't expect people to agree with me on anything much. The point of a discussion board is that people with different opinions can discuss them, and I do respect anyone's right to an opinion. I may disagree, and if I do I will say so, but I will explain why, and I don't think I resort to insults to do so. If someone comes back with their own considered opinion I will listen, and adapt or change my mind if I am persuaded to do so.

I don't respect the trotting out of tabloid insults such as 'rabbit in the headlights', 'Two tier Keir' 'flip-flopping' etc (and that applies equally to cliches about politicians from other parties before the 'double standards' comments start ).

Object to policies or personal morality, or anything else, but copycat insults and 'cut and pastes' are ill-informed prejudice. If someone else has said things in such a way that you couldn't have said it better, at least have the decency to credit the author and admit that you are quoting, not coming up with the idea or phrase yourself.

Sorry if that's a bit disjointed - I've had about three attempts to finish the post with interruptions in between them .

My father is an immigrant, I will probably get round to reading it, in the same way I will read what polanski says, I tend to like to read different views.

Galaxy

My father is an immigrant, I will probably get round to reading it, in the same way I will read what polanski says, I tend to like to read different views.

Yes I agree, I like Question
Time for that reason.

Cossy

Whataboutery 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

If you say so Meandrogrog, with respect, you’re clearly going to comment with sarcasm or deny or accuse me of something whatever I post.

I suggest we simply agree to disagree with most of our views, beliefs, opinions and moral standpoint and think ourselves fortunate that we live in a country where we can (almost always) share our thoughts without recourse.

Yes good idea, its fine to disagree with each other, as Doodledog says in her well thought out post, I do not expect others to particularly agree with me on here. At my bridge club most do, as also-elsewhere I go, but I am happy for people not to. Its more important to respect others have different views without resorting to insults ( I am not saying you do that btw!)

We are are the great grandchildren of Eastern European immigrants of Jewish origin. We live alongside all kinds of different races and people of differing faiths here in London. Our lived experience is that the majority of immigrants become part of the rich tapestry of this beautiful city, adding a vibrancy for which London is known worldwide. We have never met a Muslim who hasn’t ‘integrated’, and there are many living near us, there are Muslim women who wear hijabs and those who don’t, many have responsible jobs in the community as teachers, councillors, and solicitors. The days of Muslim women staying at home and bending their head to their husband are well and truly over. They often have a better education and job than their husbands, their daughters sign up to football and rugby clubs, and they are loud and proud.
I struggle to understand why some assume immigrants don’t want to integrate, perhaps those recently arrived have trouble with the language and culture, some may of course be criminals, but to imagine they are all like this is not only naive but risible. I imagine most want to fit in, is a normal human desire.
Anyway as I said that is my lived experience.

Cossy I’ve worked with Muslim women too.You can’t tell much about their private lives as they will never say anything to colleagues.
It’s impossible to know Maremia ( immigrants who aren’t integrating well into our society) but there may be a government report on it somewhere.

Doodledog

*I am interested in what you mean by ill informed prejudice. It does come across as you meaning anyone who disagrees with you!*
No, I mean ill-informed prejudice. The sort of thing we see in FB copy and pastes like the one currently on here about how pensioners will have to give up bedrooms, and how they are so much worse off than previous generations were. It's not a question of agreeing or not - it's a question of accuracy. There is a lot of that sort of thing around. People are all too happy to pass them on without informing themselves as to whether they are true or not, and all too many others are willing to believe them, and feel even more aggrieved than they do already.

I agree with you that too many people feel overlooked, however, and have said so on here for years. I've felt like that since the Brexit referendum. I voted Remain, but was annoyed by the way Leave voters were called 'thick' and racist. Some probably were, to be fair, and there was as much name-calling in the other direction (Remoaners, even Traitors), but it was very divisive, largely because people weren't listening to one another or informing themselves, but latching onto 'preserve sovereignty' and 'protect our borders' and so on, without finding out what that would mean in practice.

I don't expect people to agree with me on anything much. The point of a discussion board is that people with different opinions can discuss them, and I do respect anyone's right to an opinion. I may disagree, and if I do I will say so, but I will explain why, and I don't think I resort to insults to do so. If someone comes back with their own considered opinion I will listen, and adapt or change my mind if I am persuaded to do so.

I don't respect the trotting out of tabloid insults such as 'rabbit in the headlights', 'Two tier Keir' 'flip-flopping' etc (and that applies equally to cliches about politicians from other parties before the 'double standards' comments start ).

Object to policies or personal morality, or anything else, but copycat insults and 'cut and pastes' are ill-informed prejudice. If someone else has said things in such a way that you couldn't have said it better, at least have the decency to credit the author and admit that you are quoting, not coming up with the idea or phrase yourself.

Sorry if that's a bit disjointed - I've had about three attempts to finish the post with interruptions in between them .

I do so agree with you. I absolutely do credit Matt Goodwin with the ability to put things better than I ever could and I am quoting, not coming up with the ideas myself! I am just putting out there the publication of his book. I have nowhere near his knowledge and skills!

Maremia

How many is 'many'? Not a daft question.
It is being used against immigrants who are alleged to not be integrating properly.
Are there actual verifiable statistics on the number of immigrants who don't integrate into British society?

What annoys a lot of people is that they come here and want to change our way of life to suit themselves. They do not try to integrate and to a point I understand this as most of us enjoy being with people who share our own values and interests. However, I believe this country has bent over backwards to accept people from other countries by providing translators costing millions, providing very generous benefits, housing them, allowing them to follow their religions etc etc. so bearing all this in mind, if they don’t like our country or the way we do things then they should go elsewhere.

But they don’t because so many get everything they need including Universal Credit. They tell all their friends back home and they think it sounds great and so they get on a dinghy too.

Sorry this is disjointed I keep getting interrupted.

Thank you Meandrogrog

I’d never knowingly insult anyone, on or off Gransnet, and those that know me a little better from Gransnet will mostly say that I do try hard to see both sides of most arguments and debates.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend

I’m just getting ready to go out and meet a dear friend for a cuppa, cake and a catchup. It seems to take me forever to get ready to go anywhere these days, even bed 🤣🤣

In the past, immigrants most usually did integrate well into our society as there weren’t all that many, unlike now.
In the 20th century I’m thinking of : Irish, Hungarians, Polish,
Lithuanian and German, as well as those from the Colonies.
Also Chinese and Italians.
When any society can absorb immigrants easily it’s never a problem but when numbers are too high it always is a problem.
All of Europe is struggling with too much immigration, but being a very small country I think it’s felt more here.

We can't base government strategy on individuals lived experience though, from the figures it looks like around 20 % of Muslim women have difficulties with English, the government are about to launch a strategy to improve English speaking ( not specific to Muslim women) so an issue obviously exists .

Oreo

In the past, immigrants most usually did integrate well into our society as there weren’t all that many, unlike now.
In the 20th century I’m thinking of : Irish, Hungarians, Polish,
Lithuanian and German, as well as those from the Colonies.
Also Chinese and Italians.
When any society can absorb immigrants easily it’s never a problem but when numbers are too high it always is a problem.
All of Europe is struggling with too much immigration, but being a very small country I think it’s felt more here.

The UK isn't a very small country.

Primrose I know you know this, but having worked with our welfare system from 2009-2022 I can assure you no one without leave to remain AND right to work can claim mainstream benefits or social housing.

They do, of course get some form of housing, often not the 5 star stuff the Daily Mail would have you believe and a basic allowance, from part of our foreign aid budget, of just a little than £2 per day, slightly more if you have children or are pregnant.

Getting leave to remain is a long and ridiculously protracted process, and this could certainly be improved and made more efficient.

During this period they are not allowed to undertake any paid work.

People who get on small boats are, in the main, desperate people, they haven’t been “dropped off” in Calais, they’ve made their way from places like Syria, not on a lovely bus or plane, but in the back of lorries or walking.

Asylum Seekers still only make up approximately 1% of our overall population and do NOT, as a general rule, leap to the top of the social housing list once given leave to remain and leave to work.

The biggest group of people of people in the country illegally are those who came across on temporary visas, normally students, and are visa overstayers.

As for integrating, have you seen the number of Brits in Spain? Don’t learn the language, don’t become catholics and open and eat in English and Irish restaurants and bars!

The UK is small compared to many European countries.

Meandrogrog

Cossy

Whataboutery 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

If you say so Meandrogrog, with respect, you’re clearly going to comment with sarcasm or deny or accuse me of something whatever I post.

I suggest we simply agree to disagree with most of our views, beliefs, opinions and moral standpoint and think ourselves fortunate that we live in a country where we can (almost always) share our thoughts without recourse.

Yes good idea, its fine to disagree with each other, as Doodledog says in her well thought out post, I do not expect others to particularly agree with me on here. At my bridge club most do, as also-elsewhere I go, but I am happy for people not to. Its more important to respect others have different views without resorting to insults ( I am not saying you do that btw!)

The fact that people at your bridge club agree with just shows that people tend to select their acquaintances. I attend a number of clubs and organisations and the vast majority of people are in tune with my values, beliefs and opinions, which I can tell in the short time I've read your posts that you wouldn't be.

Oreo

The UK is small compared to many European countries.

It's not very small and is bigger than some European countries.

I think that might be why we are becomkng so polarised.

I do so agree with you. I absolutely do credit Matt Goodwin with the ability to put things better than I ever could and I am quoting, not coming up with the ideas myself! I am just putting out there the publication of his book. I have nowhere near his knowledge and skills!
Can you tell us more about his knowledge and skills, and why you agree with the ideas in his book? Which bits has he put well, for instance? Also, do you see the title's similarity to a notoriously racist film as coincidence (given Goodwin's extensive knowledge, I mean)?

As already said tho Cossy numbers of immigrants in a country really matter.Those from the UK and Ireland who settle in Spain are either those of working age who have set up businesses or the retired.All help the economy of Spain in various ways and many do learn Spanish.Nobody expects them to become Catholics just as nobody expects immigrants here in the UK to change their religion.Those living in Spain pay for their own houses and don’t expect any benefits.

This notion that the UK is full is another myth perpetrated by the right wing media to create division and fear.

Less that 10% of England is developed. This includes everything that is built and the infrastructure and green space within it.

Scotland (1.9%), Wales (4.1%), and Northern Ireland (3.6%) have significantly lower percentages of urban, developed land.

What’s left is agriculture land (and yet we import more food than we grow and rear), hills and mountains, woodland and lakeland.

Much of our land both urban and rural is owned by the wealthiest families and institutions including some 17% of land owned by “new money”. An elite of less than 1% of the population owns half of England including the rulers or Dubai.

In England alone there are one million homes sitting long term empty that could and should be brought into use to solve the housing crisis.

This isn’t or shouldn’t be an argument about black and white, Christian and Muslim. To use a phrase; it isn’t the people on small boats who are the problem but the people on large yachts ...

... but billionaire owner of the Daily Mail, tax-avoiding Jonathan Harmsworth, 4th Viscount Rothermere would rather you didn't think about that and blame someone else for your grievances.

Oreo

Meandrogrog

BlueBelle

I m very content with how my country looks Meandrogrog
I ve lived long enough to be used to the hatred spewed out to various ethnic populations by racists and I m very far from content with racism
Hopefully one day we will eradicate these racists from our shores perhaps we can swap them and send them off in little
(or big) boats

I m much rather live next door to a Muslim than a racist

Its that word again, the one always, always used. Its overused, meaningless, accusatory while being quite untrue.

Absolutely, racist is losing its meaning on SM as it's so overused and wrongly used.
Glad that you’re happy with the state of our country BlueBelle but very very many people certainly aren’t and no it’s not all about immigration per se but the truth is that sheer numbers are putting a strain on all the infrastructure of life here.

Exactly
Maybe many others on GN are also in agreement but are reluctant to post as they are likely to be shot down in flames and labelled racists, as has already happened on this thread