Europe - dare we hope?

I agree with Martav/Taurus in that we won't be given back the same terms and conditions that we gave up at BREXIT.

MartavTaurus

MaizieD

MartavTaurus

I think Labour calls it resetting the relationship, though that's a bit misleading because it can't and shouldn't return to its original rapport.

Why not?

Because things have evolved over the past 10 years, I believe you can never go back, only forward.
A lot has changed, certainly the UK will have learned more about how our European friends view us, and vice versa.
The rapport is fractured, but it can be rebuilt in a different way.

I want my freedom of movement back... We won't get that without rejoining.

I really do not want to be hanging around on the periphery of the EU for ever. That isn't what I voted for... twice.

I'm as sore now as I was 10 years ago...

Doesn't stop me wanting a 'closer relationship'.

Mojack26

If I was EU I would not take us back. South of England voted us out

Farage and his posters had a lot to answer for.

Romola

I campaigned hard for Remain and was derided on this site for saying I cried all day when Leave won. The last ten years showed that my tears were for good reason, as I knew at the time.
I'm a member of the European Movement and do all I can to support closer ties with the EU and its associates. I hate being an alien from what is our wider Western heritage.

I voted Remain as did my DS and DD. DD was in Japan on tour with the orchsestra she worked with as tour manager. She phoned me in the middle of the night sobbing down the phone when the result was announced! She knew how Brexit would make performing in Europe more difficult and double her workload applying for visas for all the orchestra rather than the few musicians who were not from the UK or Europe. DS went to work in Germany for 2 years during the transition period but possibly wouldn't be able to do the same now. I have a number of family members living in Europe including my brother who owns a villa in Spain which he cannot visit for as long as before.
However I still know people who think Brexit was the right decision and I can't understand their reasoning at all.
I still remember a poster on GN bemoaning the fact that she'd voted Leave, against the advice of her adult children, only to see them emmigrate as their jobs in the UK were no longer there!
Unfortunately any return to the deal we had is never going to happen and anything we do recover will be at a high price!

Maremia 17.18 "In a democracy, 58 per cent is a majority".

Absolutely and more or less double the 30% who said it was the right decision to leave the EU.

If the momentum continues it will only take one political party to see the opportunity to win a GE with a manifesto pledge to seek to rejoin the EU.

Maremia

The thing about democracy is that you get to vote again.
Would people vote again for BREXIT now that we have lived its reality?

Yes and the vote was 10 years ago, why not vote again and put the argument to rest. Who knows we might get the same result if the country thinks it has been a success.

We are so isolated now. Trump’s behaviour has shown this so clearly. He is threatening us constantly and attempts to bully us to follow his lead. We need Europe. We need to reverse our isolation. We need to reinstate our ability to return illegal migrants to their own country. Brexit has been a disaster!

Bibedybop

Maremia

The thing about democracy is that you get to vote again.
Would people vote again for BREXIT now that we have lived its reality?

Yes and the vote was 10 years ago, why not vote again and put the argument to rest. Who knows we might get the same result if the country thinks it has been a success.

There is no point in voting to rejoin, the EU wouldn't have us currently, but we can get some limited concessions now, thats a realistic aim.
Every EU state has a veto we need to make a lot more friends to rejoin their club, the one big obstacle is freedom of movement

Luckygirl3

We need them more than they need us. Brexit has left us on the back foot.

Given we are paying far too much for the divorce - they need us. Really bad exit negotiations, really bad contract in the first place.
When we went in it was like minded, like valued countries, even though both Spain and Italy had their problems, but now the EU is full of gimme countries who cannot afford to be in. It would appear that Denmark and France are unhappy and reconsidering

Not reconsidering their membership of the EU, reconsidering EU policies to better represent their interests. There is a big difference.

It would appear that .......... France are unhappy and reconsidering.
Reconsidering what? There are absolutely no plans for le Frexit by the current French government.

Or for Denmark.

FranP

Luckygirl3

We need them more than they need us. Brexit has left us on the back foot.

Given we are paying far too much for the divorce - they need us. Really bad exit negotiations, really bad contract in the first place.
When we went in it was like minded, like valued countries, even though both Spain and Italy had their problems, but now the EU is full of gimme countries who cannot afford to be in. It would appear that Denmark and France are unhappy and reconsidering

I thought lots of other countries were going to follow us when they realised what a great decision we’d made ? Whatever came of that I wonder?

"I thought lots of other countries were going to follow us when they realised what a great decision we’d made hmm? Whatever came of that I wonder?"

It was just one of the lies amongst many others spread by the Brexit zealots.

Repeat the lie often enough and is becomes fact in the minds of the gullible, Farage is still using it to good effect.

We should never hace left in the first place. I am a little concerned about the conditions that will be placed on any attempt to rejoin. We will lose a lot of control in our own country and most probably say goodbye to the £. Which will inevitably raise prices again. However, in the long term its a necessity.

MayBee70

FranP

Luckygirl3

We need them more than they need us. Brexit has left us on the back foot.

Given we are paying far too much for the divorce - they need us. Really bad exit negotiations, really bad contract in the first place.
When we went in it was like minded, like valued countries, even though both Spain and Italy had their problems, but now the EU is full of gimme countries who cannot afford to be in. It would appear that Denmark and France are unhappy and reconsidering

I thought lots of other countries were going to follow us when they realised what a great decision we’d made ? Whatever came of that I wonder?

Oh I'd actually forgotten about that.

I can't forget the morning after when the powers that be stood about and realised they'd forgotten about Ireland.

David49

"I thought lots of other countries were going to follow us when they realised what a great decision we’d made hmm? Whatever came of that I wonder?"

It was just one of the lies amongst many others spread by the Brexit zealots.

Repeat the lie often enough and is becomes fact in the minds of the gullible, Farage is still using it to good effect.

That's not exactly true David49 , and I know this because I was living in France at the time.

Without going into too much detail - because this thread isn't about the past but about our future - France DID consider Frexit at the time the UK had its referendum.

François Hollande met Madame Frexit, Le Pen, on many an occasion to discuss her proposal to have a French referendum to leave the EU.

It wasn't totally pie in the sky, and I think opinion pllls showed that around 33% French people were in favour of leaving. Le Pen's proposal was ultimately rejected.

Then of course Macron was elected in 2017 and to be fair to him he did reconsider leaving the EU. There were many thoughtful interviews on French tv with the two party leaders discussing this. I think Macron even said something like the French were equally disenchanted with globalisation, and if presented with the simple yes or no question, then they would probably have voted for Frexit too.

This is all fact, not a lie. Sorry, it's a bit long winded, but apart from Mamie, and maybe one other, no one on N & P is better informed about French politics than we are, because we lived through it. If anyone wants a meaty read on this EU issue, it's all in Macron's memoir (available in English, but more authentic in French!).

I think that if John Major hadn’t signed up to the Maastricht agreement the U.K. wouldn’t have left the EU.

Yes I take your point, but don’t forget we had all sorts of opt outs - the best of both worlds in fact!

"It wasn't totally pie in the sky, and I think opinion pllls showed that around 33% French people were in favour of leaving. Le Pen's proposal was ultimately rejected."

France leaving the EU with land borders with 6 other countries would be unworkable the whole of the EU would have had to change, a big leap to the right to prevent a split.
As it is now several countries are moving to the right, Spain the opposite, with the present worry over military security France holds a great many cards to negotiate a better deal and stay in the EU

FriedGreenTomatoes2

The peace dividend has allowed Europe to become bloated welfare states and to hide behind the nebulous concept of international law. The tide’s going out now and we can see who isn't wearing a swimming costume.

Gransnet is to be congratulated on attracting majority belief in the rule of law , whilst tolerating your opinion on international law.

Whitewavemark2

Yes I take your point, but don’t forget we had all sorts of opt outs - the best of both worlds in fact!

Maybe if consecutive U.K. governments had adopted a more European approach to EU rules it would have been seen as a different kettle of fish, and not seen as us being dictated to by them

(I appreciate that the above is simplistic musing but hopefully you will get my gist.)

Yes I know exactly what you mean.

I think that Europe was often used as the whipping boy to hide rubbish decisions by our governments and as a result, Europe was blamed wrongly for being over powerful etc.

Years ago - I did a course about Europe, it’s various workings etc. - it would bring so much more understanding and be more democratic if people had that advantage.