Where is the balance and how can we live respectfully with difference? Radical feminist (TERF) beliefs versus transgender beliefs.

In fact, intersex is the wrong word, I should not have used it.

twaddle

So is the problem with the "traditional" toilets because trans people want to use facilities of their chosen sex?

Is that really a problem for women because I don't think I have ever known a women's toilet which doesn't have separate cubicles and doors? I can see it could be an issue with communal changing rooms, where people need to strip down to their undies. To be honest, I would have thought the people most threatened would be straight males, in case there are any predatory gay males around.

which leads into transwomen not being the problem. The problem is men?

Perhaps we can all demand women only changing rooms on all the beaches in the U.K. 😄😄

MissAdventure

I absolutely and most certainly would not happily strip down in front of anyone, let alone someone who is a male, and total stranger.

Neither would I. I honestly can't remember the last time I was required to do it. I didn't have a job which required a change of clothing. If an employer knows that changes of clothing will be needed, they should provide facilities with individual lockable cubicles. Of employees are really concerned, maybe emergency buttons could be installed.

JaneJudge

twaddle

So is the problem with the "traditional" toilets because trans people want to use facilities of their chosen sex?

Is that really a problem for women because I don't think I have ever known a women's toilet which doesn't have separate cubicles and doors? I can see it could be an issue with communal changing rooms, where people need to strip down to their undies. To be honest, I would have thought the people most threatened would be straight males, in case there are any predatory gay males around.

which leads into transwomen not being the problem. The problem is men?

I actually don't think it is. Most men aren't a problem.

twaddle

When does it actually make any difference to you whether a person is accepted as male or female, Doodledog?

When they want to use female spaces and are male. When they want to win prizes or apply for roles meant for women. When they have jobs that allow them to touch women intimately (particularly if the woman has been told she is getting a female doctor or nurse). When they go into changing rooms where teenage girls are changing. Will that do for now?

Or even those roll in horse drawn carts where women can plunge into the sea unseen by human eye.

Cardamom

^I do vote on anti-racism though, as people born with a certain skin colour cannot choose to be any other than they are.^

This raises an interesting question: in May 2024, a prisoner was brought to Epsom & St Helier hospital for treatment. He was serving a lengthy prison sentence for child sex offences and paedophilia and had frequently displayed violence towards both male and female prison staff. On the day that he presented at the hospital, he was attended to by an experienced black nurse called Jennifer Melle. Ms Melle hadn't been informed that the patient "identified as female" and so addressed him, very politely as "Mr". What followed was a violent tirade of abuse towards the nurse; he used foul racist language towards her, called her the N word several times and made derogatory references to the cross hanging on a chain around her neck and her religion. He faced no charges and was simply escorted back to prison. The nurse was suspended, given a final written warning and reported to the NMC for failing to use the "correct pronouns".

Remind me again.....what were you saying about respect?

The Melle case has many facets and you've missed out some.

There is no excuse for the patient's racist comments to Nurse Melle. The patient was under the bed watch of 2 prison guards and already serving a custodial sentence. I have no doubt the patient was chastised and may have lost privileges or reprimanded in some other way on return to the prison. The unacceptable comments and behaviour would be on record and potentially impact on any future parole applications. As you state the patient was already serving a lengthy prison custodial sentence.

Melle was in fact aware the patient was transgender but she did not acknowledge this in her patient care. She saw that the patients record detailed biological male genitalia and the patient was under the care of urology.

During a discussion regarding a catheter, Melle used male pronouns to the patient and referred to the patient as "MR". This resulted in the patient making racist remarks towards her.

Melle stated to the hospital management at the time she could not use female pronouns due to her christian faith. She went to a newspaper to tell her story and as a result of that Melle was suspended (a neutral act to carry out an investigation). Once the hospital investigated and found that Melle had not disclosed the patient's name, thus not breached patient confidentiality, she was reinstated.

An industrial tribunal hearing had been scheduled but before it took place Melle settled with the trust for an undisclosed sum To the press, she thanked the hospital trust for "giving her anther chance".

In light of the fact that she had breached the Nursing and Midwifery Code the trust was obligated to refer Melle to the Nursing and Midwifery Council- NMC. Nurses are held to a higher standard than the general population, ie patients interests come before personal interests and patients must always be treated with respect and must not misgender or deadname transgender patients. Thats is also the Trust hospital policy. The NMC has yet to complete its regulatory investigation and rule on Melle's case.

Doodledog

twaddle

When does it actually make any difference to you whether a person is accepted as male or female, Doodledog?

When they want to use female spaces and are male. When they want to win prizes or apply for roles meant for women. When they have jobs that allow them to touch women intimately (particularly if the woman has been told she is getting a female doctor or nurse). When they go into changing rooms where teenage girls are changing. Will that do for now?

Have any of those scenarios actually affected you?

I've already written that it would be possible to write equality legislation to make exceptions for very specific circumstances, such as competitive sport.

I honestly believe there's an awful lot of hot air about the whole issue.

Whitewavemark2

Or even those roll in horse drawn carts where women can plunge into the sea unseen by human eye.

Having been shopping for swimsuits this morning, that does have a certain appeal I must admit.

By the way, no, it doesn't "do". I think there are simple work arounds for all those scenarios.

People often say that lockable unisex facilities should 'be provided', despite the fact that many buildings are not set up for that, and re plumbing would be prohibitively expensive even if it were possible. And not all women want them. Why should the desires of a small minority trump those of everyone else?

Also, having separate areas for men and women means that a man lurking in the women's areas would stand out in a way that a man dressed as a woman would not. In dingy pub light, when there are crowds of people who have been drinking it is not always going to be possible to spot a transwoman (or someone pretending to be one) getting into the Ladies for nefarious purposes. Many years ago, a friend of mine was sexually assaulted in a pub toilet, by a man who had filled her in there. Luckily a barman noticed he was in the wrong area and followed him in, preventing an even worse incident from taking place. These days, even if he'd noticed, he may have been afraid to take action in case he was accused of 'misgendering' the attacker.

Casdon

Whitewavemark2

Or even those roll in horse drawn carts where women can plunge into the sea unseen by human eye.

Having been shopping for swimsuits this morning, that does have a certain appeal I must admit.

One of my male gt grandfathers got rich owning a fleet of bathing machines on the North East coast.

twaddle

By the way, no, it doesn't "do". I think there are simple work arounds for all those scenarios.

I agree- workarounds are available for all such scenarios.

"Why should the desires of a small minority trump those of everyone else?"

Well, quite!!

In all the time I have been using my local leisure centre, I have never ever heard anyone complaining about the changing rooms (and I've never seen anybody flashing a willy either).

That includes some Muslim ladies, who wear cover-up swimming and gym wear, but don't seem the slightest bit bothered by changing in rooms for men and women.

twaddle

Doodledog

twaddle

When does it actually make any difference to you whether a person is accepted as male or female, Doodledog?

When they want to use female spaces and are male. When they want to win prizes or apply for roles meant for women. When they have jobs that allow them to touch women intimately (particularly if the woman has been told she is getting a female doctor or nurse). When they go into changing rooms where teenage girls are changing. Will that do for now?

Have any of those scenarios actually affected you?

I've already written that it would be possible to write equality legislation to make exceptions for very specific circumstances, such as competitive sport.

I honestly believe there's an awful lot of hot air about the whole issue.

I don't always see things in terms of whether they affect me or not - I am capable of seeing beyond self-interest.

As an older woman, who can still advocate for myself I am probably less likely to be affected than a younger woman, but yes, I have been affected, and no, I am not going to elaborate, as my experiences are irrelevant to the discussion. Sorry if you think that's hot air, but it's the way I feel, just as you feel as you do.

Must not misgender or deadname transgender patients. but she just has to suck up the racism and insults to her religion? In addition to being a fully trained, experienced nurse who can clinically recognise that a cocktail and balls is always found on a male?

So basically, the kiddy fiddling, racist,misogynistic, paedophile possibly got a good telling off and maybe a few extra days eating porridge but the nurse, who could tell that the patient was a male because of his penis and balls, got a jolly good telling off, a final written warning and a referral to her governing body?

Like I said, remind me again what it is you want about respect and acceptance.

This is an area where respect and acceptance is a one way street, Cardamom.

There are a few different versions of what happened with the nurse and the prisoner. I don't suppose anyone really knows the sequence of events by now.

Yes I agree Respect, dignity and acceptance should be 2 way. All are expected to behave when in hospital care- this patient was in breach.

Yes all registered nurses are subject to their professional code and hospital policies.

It's quite simple to ask a patient what they want to be called on approach. Most patients respond back with the Christina name they usually use. No need to use pronouns at all, particularly mis gender pronouns.

Obviously Doodledog. I'm perplexed by those who say that, because they personally haven't been impacted by predatory males in mixed sexed spaces, that this is a non issue. I dare say there's some sort of sexual predator, somewhere or other, that makes a beeline for old ladies in states of undress but I'm unconvinced they're common; most of them prefer young, defenceless girls. Someone upthread mentioned that they've never had a problem with mixed sex changing rooms at their local swimming pool. Lucky them! We've had at least 3 incidents of males sliding a mobile phone under the changing room cubicles to film children and young girls undressed; one pervert was caught twice in a week.

The problem lies not specifically with transgender males; it lies with males. And unfortunately, males tend not to carry a sandwich board or a lanyard around their necks saying "I'M A SEXUAL PREDATOR, BEWARE", we have no way of knowing who the safe ones are and who are the dangerous ones are. It therefore makes perfect sense to keep ALL males out of female spaces, including those who think they can be women, until such time as women can be safe in all spaces, at all times. never gonna happen

Ilovecheese

There are a few different versions of what happened with the nurse and the prisoner. I don't suppose anyone really knows the sequence of events by now.

It would appear that Nurse Melle admitted she couldn't use female gender pronouns as a result of her Christian beliefs. She claimed she was being discriminated against because of her Christian beliefs. She was suspended for going to the media, which is against the professional code.

Cardamom

Obviously Doodledog. I'm perplexed by those who say that, because they personally haven't been impacted by predatory males in mixed sexed spaces, that this is a non issue. I dare say there's some sort of sexual predator, somewhere or other, that makes a beeline for old ladies in states of undress but I'm unconvinced they're common; most of them prefer young, defenceless girls. Someone upthread mentioned that they've never had a problem with mixed sex changing rooms at their local swimming pool. Lucky them! We've had at least 3 incidents of males sliding a mobile phone under the changing room cubicles to film children and young girls undressed; one pervert was caught twice in a week.

The problem lies not specifically with transgender males; it lies with males. And unfortunately, males tend not to carry a sandwich board or a lanyard around their necks saying "I'M A SEXUAL PREDATOR, BEWARE", we have no way of knowing who the safe ones are and who are the dangerous ones are. It therefore makes perfect sense to keep ALL males out of female spaces, including those who think they can be women, until such time as women can be safe in all spaces, at all times. --never gonna happen--

No, I didn't write that it's a non-issue. I wrote that there were simple work arounds. Please don't lie.

No, it's never gonna happen, so get over it!

Antisemitism doesn't affect me personally because I'm not Jewish but does impact my wider family, Islamophobia doesn't affect me personally because I'm not Muslim, racism against brown and black people doesn't affect me personally because I'm white, but does impact some of my family. Perhaps I shouldn't care about those either?

It is so galling to hear women saying they just don't care. The same women who were saying every woman should vote because women before us fought so hard for us to get the vote. They know what women are when they want to chastise us.
The 'intersex', vile inaccurate word, figures have absolutely nothing to do with transgender issues and incidentally cover any difference of sexual development such as women born without ovaries or a uterus. People born with a DSD (difference of sexual development) rarely have indistinct genitalia, and these days any doubt is cleared at birth by dna testing. DSDs are always specific to either males or females there is no crossover. The most common DSD which results in indistinct genitalia is 5ARD a condition only affecting males, Caster Semenya is a prime example. These males go through a normal male puberty powered by their internal testes and develop normal male strengths, muscle mass, bone density etc.

On the subject of deadnaming plenty of people have no problem refusing to use the name of the man who calls himself Tommy Robinson but refer to his given name of Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. I know he's a vile person, so should we apply the same criteria to transpeople and only use their preferred name if they're nice?

And just one tiny snippet some may be unaware of. A gender recognition certificate changes your legal sex and entitles you to the benefits and protections of that sex. Except in one very male area. An older sister who transitions to be a transman can still not inherit land or titles that pass through male primogeniture, her younger brother will inherit even if he has transitioned to be a transwoman. And they try to say it's not a mens rights movement.

And mocking women who want the privacy, dignity and safety of, for example, changing rooms is a weak but offensive stance. You don't get many sexual assaults on beaches packed with holidaymakers do you?