Where is the balance and how can we live respectfully with difference? Radical feminist (TERF) beliefs versus transgender beliefs.

No.

Plenty of factual information on record about Nurse Melle. Equally the NMC code of conduct and hospital policies available for all to read on line as is the Human Rights Act.

In due course the NMC ruling will be available to read and no doubt be reported in the media.

LemonJam I do hope you don't use the term 'Christian name' in your professional setting, surely 'forename' or 'given name' are the correct terminologies. No Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh Hindu, or indeed atheist has a Christian name.

I knew it would get back to not all men as soon as I mentioned men

I'm even less interested in it now. Thanks

I find myself in total agreement with Doodlebug's posts on the subject.

I am not "transphobic". If a guy wants to change his name from Fred to Sue, there is no law against it. If a woman wants to change from Annabel to George, who cares. Some names are not "gender specific" anyway. Ashley, for instance.
Natural born women are free to wear trousers these days, even those with the zip up the front. My mother would have disapproved. She did disaprove. Doesn't stop me wearing them. Far better fitting than the old "ladies" side zip version.
I wear a dress in hot weather because it is more comfortable. I have no problem if natural born men want to wear dresses. Why shouldn't they? People will soon get used to the idea, just like they got used to men with powdered wigs, tights and make-up, not to mention girls with skirts above the knee in the 1960s!

My first encounter with what is now called a transwoman was way back in the mid 1990s. It was at a training centre when I was learning IT before "returning to work" after raising children. Management had a meeting with the female students. It was explained that "Richard", previously a student, was returning as "Susan" (not the actual names). Susan would be dressing "as a woman". There were concerns as to how the male students would react, particularly in the privacy of the toilet area. We were asked if Susan might use the female toilets. We asked only one question, to which the answer was Yes. So we unanimously declared Susan to be an honorary woman for toilet usage purposes. That would not have been the case if Susan had not "fully transitioned".

As for pronouns, I really can't remember. I think we usually refered to Susan as neither he/him, she/her or they/their. I think we just refered to her as Susan. After all, as has been mentioned previously on here and (frequently by my old English teacher Mrs Saunders), SHE is the cat's mother!

Male, female, trans, whatever, Susan was a very pleasant person.

Who should women have to come up with workarounds to accommodate trans-identifying men? The current system women have, of separate facilities for males and females, works for them. If trans people want different facilities from their birth sex they should campaign for them, like women had to fight for their rights for hundreds of years.

BTW, people with DSD are not transgender, they just have a physical difference, rather like someone who is born without a limb - they’re still a human being, they’re not some other species.

Why should…

They shouldn’t and there is a high percentage of vulnerable women (and girls) who do not have a voice and therefore don’t have a choice.

I walked into the four cubicle female toilets, straight into a man. Clearly male clothesline short trendy male hsir cut.
Sorry, I said I thought I’d walked into the women’s, You did he said, I’m a woman, strong deep male voice, and grin. He then began a discussion with the man in the only occupied toilet,
I did use the facilities but felt anxious, they left

I was at the hospitals Women’s Health section so feeling slightly vulnerable for understandable reasons
These two were men. Enjoying whatever game they were playing

Yes, there’s lots of it going on Iam. But the women are hysterical

Why should women have to come up with workarounds to accommodate trans-identifying men

Good question; why should they? I might be wrong but I cannot recall ever seeing an incidence of a biological female, who identifies as male, demanding that men make room for her in the male toilets, changing rooms or sports arena. But I hear repeated wah wah wah from biological males who fully expect women to accommodate them in our spaces. Mind you, having read some of the posts on this thread, and seeing how willingly some women roll over and acquiesce to male demands in the name of "be kind, what harm can it do", I can see why some men would think it acceptable. Thank God the younger women on Mumsnet have a backbone and are willing to fight for women's rights and safety.

I didn't use my second vote in the Scottish election for the Green party (as I have done before) because they don't know what a woman is, so yes, it altered my voting intentions. Today I saw that there are two new Green MSPs who thought that the most important thing they had to say as newly-elected MSPs was that their pronouns were they/their. I don't care what their pronouns are, as the only ones I would be likely to use for them are you/your. Glad I made that decision about voting!

However, I am sad too, because I do agree with the basic Green ideas about the environment. What a shame.

Rosie51

LemonJam I do hope you don't use the term 'Christian name' in your professional setting, surely 'forename' or 'given name' are the correct terminologies. No Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh Hindu, or indeed atheist has a Christian name.

Christian name, forename, given name - whatever terminology is appropriate for the person before me.

Quite simply, I usually introduce myself along the lines “I’m Lemondrop, what would you like me to call/ refer to you?”

Ah that's a shame Wheniwasyourage; you've missed the opportunity to vote for him/this/that/them/their/her

A transgender Indian immigrant has become the first person to be elected to Holyrood without a permanent visa to stay in the UK.
Q Manivannan, who identifies as non-binary, was elected as an MSP on the Edinburgh & Lothians East list for the pro-independence Scottish Greens.

This would give the anthropologist and poet a further three years to work and live in the UK, picking up the taxpayer-funded MSP salary of £77,711.
The self-described “queer Tamil immigrant” was only able to stand in the election after SNP ministers loosened the rules over who could be a Holyrood candidate.

Iam64

I walked into the four cubicle female toilets, straight into a man. Clearly male clothesline short trendy male hsir cut.
Sorry, I said I thought I’d walked into the women’s, You did he said, I’m a woman, strong deep male voice, and grin. He then began a discussion with the man in the only occupied toilet,
I did use the facilities but felt anxious, they left

I was at the hospitals Women’s Health section so feeling slightly vulnerable for understandable reasons
These two were men. Enjoying whatever game they were playing

Iam, how do you know they were not fully male and not trans at all but trying it on in a particularly nasty way?

I really love at my gym having a women's large changing room because of the natters we have. Gales of laughter about blokes as well as loads of other stuff. I wouldn't enjoy as much if it were a "for everyone" changing room with private cubicles.

Not at all.

Having said that, I have identified probably 3 trans women in there, who tend to use cubicles and generally come and go quietly. That's probably about the general population % of trans women? (there may be others who have transitioned so successfully I don't know)

So for me its all about how people treat each other

Having been recently (October) been sexually assaulted by a man, in what should have been a safe space:

I have to me sadly had to accept that the one trans women involved in trying to sort it all out could not understand my reaction as in but he is such a nice man etc etc and put her POV aggressively:

but then a couple of women said that too "it cant have been that bad" as he had them fooled:

And it was a man in our group who said that the man who assulted me was well out of order.

Still being resolved as our Safeguarding people were taken completely by surprise and didnt know what to do.

but its the mixed experiences that I describe about that makes me say, its not the label its the way people treat each other.

I do believe of course that biologically born males can never join in biologically born female sports and similar endeavours, and I also believer sotrnly there have to be safe spaces where only biologically born females can work and be helped - I think trans women are in danger of attack and need to be given safe spaces for them.

the real danger remains misogyny and male violence and bullying.

The actual trans issue wont make me change party,

but I would not vote for any party that ignored women's safety and the need for all the measures spelled out to protect women against assault and abuse, and reproductive rights of all kinds

The transgender population is such a small tiny part of the population. These threats and dangers inferred are so overblown. They are used for political gains over and over.
This hatred that is fomented endangers their lives and existence.
I follow a few transgender people on social media. More people should so they can have more empathy and gain understanding to their very real struggles.

Why should we worry about male violence, after all we have been told on this thread that most men are fine. It is perfectly safe for women to be naked around men, no issues whatsoever, and anyone who objects is hysterical ( ticks misogyny bingo card). And as for consent that isn't important either, after all some women are fine with it all, so the consent of other women is irrelevant.

Cardamom

^Must not misgender or deadname transgender patients.^ but she just has to suck up the racism and insults to her religion? In addition to being a fully trained, experienced nurse who can clinically recognise that a cocktail and balls is always found on a male?

So basically, the kiddy fiddling, racist,misogynistic, paedophile possibly got a good telling off and maybe a few extra days eating porridge but the nurse, who could tell that the patient was a male because of his penis and balls, got a jolly good telling off, a final written warning and a referral to her governing body?

Like I said, remind me again what it is you want about respect and acceptance.

The world is changing! We must keep up!

Apparently
Melle was in fact aware the patient was transgender but she did not acknowledge this in her patient care. She saw that the patients record detailed biological male genitalia and the patient was under the care of urology.
The patient was a man and required treatment appropriate to a male person.

During a discussion regarding a catheter, Melle used male pronouns to the patient and referred to the patient as "MR". This resulted in the patient making racist remarks towards her.
There was no excuse for the patient to make the dreadful racist remarks that he did.

Melle stated to the hospital management at the time she could not use female pronouns due to her christian faith
And surely because of her medical knowledge combined with plain common sense.
Dealing with urological problems in a male person differs from dealing with those of a female.

The NHS operates to different rules, Cardomom
Correct anatomical science is secondary to the hurt feelings of a man who claims to be a woman. .

Ilovecheese

There are a few different versions of what happened with the nurse and the prisoner. I don't suppose anyone really knows the sequence of events by now.

The patient was brought to the hospital in restraints for a urinary infection requiring a catheter.Melle referred to the patient as "he" and "Mr." when discussing the medical procedure with a doctor.

Because the catheter was in the male's penis.

Now, that doesn't mean that the staff couldn't be sensitive in dealing with that person..

I wonder how sensitive his victims and their families think it is when they hear people calling him a woman. Personally I think anyone who does that is causing further harm to those children.

Syracute

The transgender population is such a small tiny part of the population. These threats and dangers inferred are so overblown. They are used for political gains over and over.
This hatred that is fomented endangers their lives and existence.
I follow a few transgender people on social media. More people should so they can have more empathy and gain understanding to their very real struggles.

Yes.

This is where I am in complete agreement.

I live in a part of the country which has traditionally always had a larger than average gay population, and everything in between.

I have always had gay friends and known a very few people who have transitioned.

I lived here from a teenager, until now - I nor friends or family have never, ever experienced or reported the sort of criminal act that is being talked about on these threads.

That is not to say that it doesn’t exist - of course it does and one assumes it is dealt with just as all sexual crime is dealt with. But like syracute I think it is totally overblown, and almost certainly for political reasons. . I have attempted to get the figures for the sort of criminal act being describing - of women being attacked by transitional people in a single sex space and keep being told that the % level is too small to be significant.

There are however other areas relating to transitional people like sport participation that I may accept that fairness is a factor and so must and is addressed in many sports.

As a general rule I am against division and othering in whatever form it takes. There are clearly issues that need addressing but it must be remembered that transitional people experience huge emotional and physical upheaval in their life, and as has been said a bit of empathy and less hostility is sorely needed.

As someone who personally knows several trans folk ,all without exception living the life they always felt they should ,I too think the issue caused by a small minority has been ramped up by media and for political gain
My experience of these people is that they love under the radar ,have responsible jobs ,volunteer raise children and have no intention of harming anyone
I just wish those who are stuck in the past could see the good folk I see and realise transitioning is not a new thing…it was just a hidden state like homosexuality was .
Sad that we need to show our insecurities by bringing other people down.