History repeating itself

Cossy - "Rape is a despicable crime, as are any sexual assaults, if I was unfortunate enough to be assaulted in this way, frankly the colour of the MAN or his faith or nationality would be the last thing in my mind!"

I would certainly want to know if he was an illegal immigrant who arrived on a small boat, knowing that had he not been allowed to stay I wouldn't have been sexually assaulted! (even if he had been given a leaflet telling him not to do it!)

Also worth noting both Conservative Party and Reform UK say that they would withdraw from the European Convention of human Rights, EHCR, suggesting that it is EU law that constrains the UK in stopping small boats. Baloney!

The UK could withdraw (with many arguable highly adverse consequences) and set up its own domestic legal/constitutional frameworks in respect of Human Rights. However there is international Human Rights legislation and international laws, including maritime laws, that apply to refugees/asylum seekers. Australia, Canada and other countries are not signatories to EHCR but still apply and adhere to Human rights and international laws in respect of asylum seekers.

For the UK to unilaterally remove itself from international human rights, maritime and asylum seeker laws (international legislation trumps domestic legislation) would be unprecedented and would have many adverse consequences I would suggest.

There is no easy way to stop the boats.

LemonJam

Also worth noting both Conservative Party and Reform UK say that they would withdraw from the European Convention of human Rights, EHCR, suggesting that it is EU law that constrains the UK in stopping small boats. Baloney!

The UK could withdraw (with many arguable highly adverse consequences) and set up its own domestic legal/constitutional frameworks in respect of Human Rights. However there is international Human Rights legislation and international laws, including maritime laws, that apply to refugees/asylum seekers. Australia, Canada and other countries are not signatories to EHCR but still apply and adhere to Human rights and international laws in respect of asylum seekers.

For the UK to unilaterally remove itself from international human rights, maritime and asylum seeker laws (international legislation trumps domestic legislation) would be unprecedented and would have many adverse consequences I would suggest.

There is no easy way to stop the boats.

I absolutely think Reform would go to the whole hog, should they ever ever get into power with a solid majority.

I don’t think the Tories would actually take it that far, for pretty obvious reasons.

Rosie 13:27

It’s OK, I need to ensure I’m slightly clearer about my meanings in future posts 🙂🙂

AGAA4

Blame doesn't go where it should. The rich and powerful make sure of that.
It's never their fault it's always that group over there who are incapable of defending themselves.

Divide and Rule...

Cossy 15.12 Even Trump has not managed to go the 'whole hog' despite trying to exert power and influence over the judiciary. Plus of course he has mid terms coming up so the electorate in a democracy still holds some power.

I agree Reform UK might/would try but can't get there overnight despite launching an 'national emergency'. Didn't Trump try a similar approach to support his beautiful Tariff regime? Weren't there court cases and appeals against his decision and limits around legally what constitutes a 'national emergency'? Chaos yes- loss of diplomatic relationships and trade yes, successful outcomes harder to come by in a democratic society.

I trust the majority of UK citizens still want to live in a democratic society- though maybe I am being naive.

Meanwhile, just as Trump is finding, there will be reviews and appeals until they could autocratically seek this 'whole hog' end and can fully constrain the UK judiciary. However meanwhile- they have the same asylum seeker claims etc and the same problems to grapple with.

Dickens 👏 very illustrative......

Illustrative? In the past maybe, but inaccurate in the current situation.

I think it well illustrates a cleaver observation of current politics' overview of the elite and human nature myself 😊

Aveline

Illustrative? In the past maybe, but inaccurate in the current situation.

Don't you think the principle still applies?

You reduce collective power by creating a division within it.

That's how I viewed it- e.g. the imperious elite over seeing the electorate, seeks to divide existing voting 2 party dominated voting pattern etc. A divide and rule strategy has been Reform UK's trusty calling card.

Personally I also see Farage positions himself as powerful king pin in his party surrounding himself, relying on his advisors.

On that note- there's another extremely funny cartoon in the Guardian today- there monkeys with evident faces of Jukes and Orr- see no evil and speak no evil- then Farage voicing "I wasn't listening". Wish I could work out how to insert it......

friendlygingercat

I believe we are living in the last few decades of the so called democratic state supported by taxation. Parliamentary democracy has become dreadfully old fashioned and no longer gives the ordinary people a vote. The original idea of democracy was that every citizen had a vote on every matter as in the Greek city states. (Well every made citizen.) Parliamentary democracy evolved as populations increased so it was no longer feasible to gather the entire population for a decision. We elected representatives to speak for us.
In this day of the universal smart phone we have the technology for every British born citizen over 18 to have a vote on every item - rather than paying a bunch of 650 people to sit on their asses in an old fashioned building and do it.

You seem to have missed that slaves and foreigners had no franchise at all . That even adult native males, did not vote on every matter. And that there was no central parliament because half the cities in Greece operated their own local democracy ( a bit like Burnham's ambitions in Manchester).

Burnham still has that small-town/ urban mindset.

Dickens the 'division' created itself. Nobody invented those hordes of young men. They just turn up uninvited and unwanted.

Aveline

Dickens the 'division' created itself. Nobody invented those hordes of young men. They just turn up uninvited and unwanted.

Not sure what you mean.

We're talking about the electorate who are 'fed up' with their lot, for various reasons - including 'uninvited' immigrants being housed in their neighbourhood; and the electorate - en masse - is a powerful force which any government might find difficult to control.

... and one of the ways to control it is as old as the hills - get them to fight among themselves by creating one group or another as a scapegoat for all the ills that are allegedly blighting society.

That's what the cartoon is alluding to... divide and rule.

Accepting that - for want of a better word - 'boat people' are a problem. Do you think that if this problem were miraculously solved within the next couple of months that our crumbling infrastructure, depleted health and social services, cost-of-living crisis, high energy bills, exorbitant rents, etc, etc, etc, would all suddenly no longer be an issue or a problem for millions of people?

No, that would not be the case and the very wealthy elite / predatory Corporate consolidation funnelling wealth out of the economy - and their interface - like Farage, etc, would have to find another scapegoat, otherwise the pitchforks and torch bearers would go after them.

Do you not see this?

LemonJam

I think it well illustrates a cleaver observation of current politics' overview of the elite and human nature myself 😊

I agree

Aveline

Dickens the 'division' created itself. Nobody invented those hordes of young men. They just turn up uninvited and unwanted.

It certainly didn’t “create itself.

Farage and Brexit and UKIP started it and then this morphed into Reform.

Take away the boats and the “foreigners” and other than collapsing and remodelling our NHS and Reform have no policies.

Farage caused great division in our country when he bagged and loaned at Cameron to have a referendum, and he’s, (Farage) been at it ever since.

You may not wish to acknowledge it, but it’s a fact.

Even if people in general don’t learn from history politicians learn from history how to manipulate how people think and vote.

Nagged not bagged!

David49

There is a move to the right in many countries including the UK, voters dont like the changes that have been made in recent years. Unless government responds to the worries voters have they will be voted out, thats the way democracy works.

Exactly this, the pendulum always swings the other way.

If voters perceive that successive governments have not responded to their worries- I agree is strong reason that would lead to them to being voted out. The pendulum has swung exactly in this way between the Conservative Party backwards and forwards to the Labour Party for the most part since the end of WW2.

That in itself does not solely explain the new insurgent shift away from C and L parties towards hard right populist parties this is not a pendulum swing from L to C since 1944 this is a new shift.

You completely miss my point. Did Farage deliberately recruit all these young men pouring into the south of England? No. All he and others can do is react.

Aveline

You completely miss my point. Did Farage deliberately recruit all these young men pouring into the south of England? No. All he and others can do is react.

I have not missed your point, in fact I believe you’ve missed mine and others point.

Let’s just respectfully agree to disagree on this topic as I fear we will never truly appreciate each others points.

MayBee70

Even if people in general don’t learn from history politicians learn from history how to manipulate how people think and vote.

I agree

Just to put a reality check on this thread this is the percentage that did not vote for the AFD scontent-cdg4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.99422-6/798094101_1123542440000432_140135038530640945_n.png?stp=dst-jpg_tt6&cstp=mx1080x1350&ctp=s1080x1350&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=127cfc&_nc_aid=0&_nc_ohc=3nQSjTYAVq8Q7kNvwGi6PK-&_nc_oc=Adrfe7uG4d29ZMclL7vhREbGGvRRmkHqe4FLhGxvYbYjiTMnkuk9UHAq-56tF76zDI9d-ee2lzyaYAxW40Xt0t4Q&_nc_zt=14&_nc_ht=scontent-cdg4-1.xx&_nc_gid=Rcr1Pi_80KBJMoVYBhtAyg&_nc_ss=7b2a8&oh
=00_AQJ9wyq3uVe63Lkq8w1lkj4n_DTEzWYatS-og23G_w8YFw&oe=6AA4CFEF

Cossy

Aveline

You completely miss my point. Did Farage deliberately recruit all these young men pouring into the south of England? No. All he and others can do is react.

I have not missed your point, in fact I believe you’ve missed mine and others point.

Let’s just respectfully agree to disagree on this topic as I fear we will never truly appreciate each others points.

Farage didn't "recruit asylum seekers" neither did AB, Kemi Badenoch, neither did any other political leaders of countries around the world who also experience asylum seeker arrivals- a strange suggestion.