Assisted Dying Bill falls

Grandma70s

I’m horrified and very surprised. Palliative care can only do so much, and nobody should be prevented from choosing to die.

Hear, hear. What on earth gives someone the right to deny another person that choice?

I agree with a lot of what you say. Last year my brother walked into hospital under some persuasion as I could see he wasn’t at all well. They did look after him and I thought he was on the mend till they did tests and I realised how ill he had become he lasted five days and on the sixth died. He had a peaceful death with me by his side. I dread to think of the outcome had he lived and the following months. I’m so grateful to the doctors who looked after him.

watermeadow How can people imagine their feelings if it was not a cat or dog but their mum or grandfather they were asking it for? ^our misunderstanding about how Assisted dying would work, shows the weakness in this campaign.

No one, but no one seeks an assisted death for someone else. It is meant to always be the ill person who seeks it. My fear is that your misunderstanding is what the bill could become and is well on the way to being that in several countries that have Assited dying legislation. It is meant to be assisted suicide legislation not assisted murder.

Yes you are right MOnica. But it does have to have the relevant safeguarding in place. And there's no reason why that couldn't be put in place.

M0nica

watermeadow How can people imagine their feelings if it was not a cat or dog but their mum or grandfather they were asking it for? ^our misunderstanding about how Assisted dying would work, shows the weakness in this campaign.

No one, but no one seeks an assisted death for someone else. It is meant to always be the ill person who seeks it. My fear is that your misunderstanding is what the bill could become and is well on the way to being that in several countries that have Assited dying legislation. It is meant to be assisted suicide legislation not assisted murder.

My dogs have always been loved members of our family. One of the firm beliefs I’ve reached is the old adage, better a day too soon than a day too late. I’ve made that last loving decision for each of my dogs, been with them at the end of their lives. I could detail each one now, as though it was yesterday. One was six year old cocker cross, who suddenly became lame. 25 days later, and numerous investigations as he deteriorated, he was put to sleep, in my arms in his bed at home. By then he was confused, bewildered and doubly incontinent. MRI scan identified an inoperable tumour on his spine, pressing his vital organs. He couldn’t make the choice but the excellent vets involved in his life could make that decision with me.

Basgetti

Grandma70s

I’m horrified and very surprised. Palliative care can only do so much, and nobody should be prevented from choosing to die.

Hear, hear. What on earth gives someone the right to deny another person that choice?

Nobody is denying anybody the right to commit suicide. What needs the utmost safeguarding, which this bill in its present form lacked, is assisting someone else to commit suicide. For those aghast that the bill didn't pass many of the examples of who people want to be eligible simply wouldn't be.
At the very beginning of the attempt to pass a bill we were told of the numerous steps and safeguards that would be employed up to and including a judge overseeing every case. One by one many got dropped.

There appears to be a lot of misunderstanding regarding this bill M0nica.

Why are we constantly having those who are disabled speaking about their vulnerability and fear? They could only have this choice if they've been told they have no more than 6 months to live.

We know that you can be given a terminal diagnosis which doesn't also mean you have only 6 months to live, so arguing that being told for example you have stage 4 cancer could result in being coerced/pressured into requesting an assisted death is another example IMO of misinformation.

This bill is not for assisted suicide as many if the placards seen yesterday were claiming. It's to give anyone who wants it the right to choose when, where and how they die because they know that within 6 months they're going too.


How many have gone to Dignitas and ended their lives sooner than they needed too for fear of leaving it too late and being unable to make the journey? This is what's happened to
Esther Rantzen.

What worries me is notso much the legislation, but the attitudinal drift that then comes into place.

When abortion became legal, its use was and is carefully contained - in the legislation, but attitudes change and now, parents who decide to give birth to, rather than abort a disabled baby find others, including medical staff, disapproving of their actons because their child will be a burden on state.

The same with Assisted Suicide. This 6 month limit is a moot point. No one can be absolutely sure how long someone will lift. People then start campaigning to widen the conditions that people can claim as a reason for asking for assisted suicide. We have seen that happening in other countries.

friendlygingercat

I believe very strongly in the right to end your life, It is the one thing that really belongs to you regardless of birth or social status.

Suicide is easy if you live alone and are mobile and in clear mind. I always make sure I have the means to die quietly and peacefully in my own way. I don't need a law to tell me what to do.

I’m glad you are so confident that suicide is easy friendlygingercat. Maybe you are a vet?

I would be frightened I would make a mess of it and be left in a bad way, causing upset for the family.

Yes we have watched exactly what has happened in other countries, we understand the vulnerabilities of people who may be coerced, the issues of poverty, care, disability, etc.
Anyone who has witnessed nhs care for those with disabilities couldnt fail to have concerns.
I also think the behaviour of some of those Mps who supported the bill has been shameful, unable to tolerate even the slightest concern.

This bill is not for assisted suicide as many if the placards seen yesterday were claiming. It's to give anyone who wants it the right to choose when, where and how they die because they know that within 6 months they're going too.

What is the act of taking your own life if it's not suicide? Why are people so squeamish about using the correct term? Suicide was decriminalised in the UK in 1961 and this bill wants to decriminalise the act of assisting a suicide. Calling it assisted dying doesn't change reality.

I agree Smileless. Also the term suicide is outdated, as it used to have been deemed as immoral and people were given an unmarked grave.
Thankfully we've moved on and 'took one's own life' is now used and you can have any choice of burial.
On R4 this morning it was said 1.4 million would be put towards palliative care over the next year. That of course is peanut's but a start and apparently to be built on up to 40 million, I believe over the next decade. This will only be able to offer some needs. But with that and the right to die Bill running alongside it, is hopeful.

If you support the right to choose the time of your death enabled by the state administering the means, why should that be limited to only one select group of people? Shouldn't equality for all logically extend that to every single person who wants to exercise that right?

The ONS keeps statistics on suicides under that heading, not 'took one's own life'. Suicide is put on death certificates along with the medical cause of death, although not in Scotland (according to AI). Times change suicide is no longer a criminal act nor seen as 'immoral' by most people.

This is an impossible choice for me at the moment.

I listened to a doctor saying how some patients - mainly women - asked to die because they don’t want to burden their families (I could identify with that) and then listen to a woman who listened to her mother screaming in pain. How can you possibly not deny her death!? Both MPs

Most importantly I think is excellent palliative care.

Suicide is far from easy. Many attempt it, many “fail” in their attempt.

Also, speaking very bluntly, my biological father, my maternal grandfather and my SiL all committed suicide, whilst the balance of their minds were very disturbed, they were not terminally unwell, not one of them, they were very very disturbed and it was out of character for all of them and for each of them it was an “event” which triggered the act;

Biological father, an imminent divorce form my mother,
Maternal Grandfather, the death of his wife, my dearest Granny,
SiL, brought up in the catholic religion, guilt at leaving her husband and teenage children to live her “real” life as a lesbian.

Suicide is not physically, emotionally or mentally easy, and the devastation it leaves behind for family members is immense.

It’s really not the same discussion at all.

I completely agree there must be strict guidelines and legislation in place and many many safeguarding checks.

However, just saying it should be limited to those with terminal illnesses with less than 6 months rules out many many people who would like that choice, people who have MND, people totally disabled physically through accidents, people with extremely painful progressive diseases and conditions.

When I stated I wouldn’t put my dog through this, I wasn’t saying I wanted others to make that choice for me, as you have to do for animals as they cannot speak for themselves.

I meant, I would like the right to decide, having rationally discussed this with my family and the necessary medical staff, how and when I die. With conditions like MND the mind is often the last part of the body to give in to this terrible disease, other conditions are similar and cause terrible terrible pain.

A living will and DNA documents could be incorporated into any other safeguarding processes, and of course, anyone must be allowed, right up until the very last possible moment, to change their minds.

My MiL, for example, though her quality of life is literally appalling, totally incontinent, cannot feed herself, can only manage her food both fed to her and mushed up like baby food, very limited mobility now on a hoist, but sadly very severe advanced dementia so would not be judged of sound mind, also even if we were able to make this decision for her, none of us would, she is a very strict catholic and this would go against her lifelong principles. She was never told her own daughter’s cause of death, as she would have never been able to grieve properly as her “fear” would be her own dear daughter would never be able to rest in peace.

This should be a choice for us to all make individually.

I understand people’s fears, but this isn’t mandatory death, and just as people will choose not to go down this route, there will be people who would very much wish to.

I hope it gets further than it has so far and that one day we will all have the choice we deserve and that this will be done with the utmost care, compassion and safeguarding

It has nothing to do with being squeamish *Rosie^.

This bill is to legalise the assistance given to someone who is dying; it is not assisting suicide.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Himself died 6 months ago in a hospice as per his wishes. He was not in any pain for which I am eternally grateful as that was his biggest fear when he knew he was dying. I just wish the wonderful work of hospice care didn’t have to rely so heavily on charitable donations. His wonderful
Consultant Alison told me only 30% of their funding came from government sources.

Those who work there are truly angels in uniforms.

In hospices there is the very best of palliative care available. The palliative care in hospitals is somewhat variable. I agrre re charitable donations. The irony is that extending and funding ghe hospice system would reduce costs and problems in the NHS in the long run!

winterwhite

If it were strictly for people with only 6 months of life left I would think it worth the risk of a few people feeling coerced into choosing dying. Denying people in pain the right to choose is wrong.
When and if high quality hospice care is available everywhere fewer people might make the choice

Identifying "only 6 months to live" is not an accurate diagnostic context as many Drs have stated in this debate

Worth the risk of a few people being coerced into dying, I dont know what to say to that.

Smileless2012

It has nothing to do with being squeamish *Rosie^.

This bill is to legalise the assistance given to someone who is dying; it is not assisting suicide.

I'm sorry but that makes no sense at all. If somebody deliberately ends their life prematurely by whatever means that is suicide. It's the very definition. Suicide is when someone ends their own life. Just because somebody has a terminal illness does not change that. Palliative care is 'assisting someone who is dying'.

Galaxy

Worth the risk of a few people being coerced into dying, I dont know what to say to that.

I agree 100%! I hadn't refreshed the page so hadn't seen the post.

I’d never ever subscribe to even one person being “coerced” into dying! What a weird thing to say, I’d called coercing some into dying abuse at best, murder at worst!

“Madgran77

FriedGreenTomatoes2
Himself died 6 months ago in a hospice as per his wishes. He was not in any pain for which I am eternally grateful as that was his biggest fear when he knew he was dying. I just wish the wonderful work of hospice care didn’t have to rely so heavily on charitable donations. His wonderful
Consultant Alison told me only 30% of their funding came from government sources.

Those who work there are truly angels in uniforms.
In hospices there is the very best of palliative care available. The palliative care in hospitals is somewhat variable. I agrre re charitable donations. The irony is that extending and funding ghe hospice system would reduce costs and problems in the NHS in the long run!“

madgran I completely agree

FGT, my dear dad was fortunate enough to spend his last few days in a Hospice, the care and compassion he received was first class. My mother made a substantial donation when he died and his funeral donations were split between the hospice and pancreatic cancer.

Each Christmas we make a donation to the hospice.

Yes you're right Rosie I should have said assisting someone whose dying to die.

As you say it isn't an accurate diagnosis Madgran. Someone could live longer or die before but I suppose there needs to be a bench mark.

I am very sorry that the Bill has been thrown out. Over forty years ago I watched my Dad die in great pain, he was in hospital. Four years ago I watched on helplessly as my husband died in agony in our home under the Hospice at Home scheme. They were never around overnight, if I needed help for him after 5 I could ring the District Nurses who were wonderful, they were on duty until 11 at night. After that, and nighttime’s proved to be his worst and most painful times on earth for the last few days, it was a case of phoning 111 which of course took time. He was so brave, I could never bear the pain that he did. Whenever I hear that a person ‘died quietly at home’ I think “weren’t they lucky”.
Ever since my husband’s death I have been an advocate of The Right to Die. I will blame Burnham and his turncoats for denying me the right to die relatively pain-free with my dignity in tact. It is barbaric what some people have to endure at their most vulnerable time. Often said but nevertheless true, we don’t put our pets through such agony.