Assisted Dying Bill falls

MrsQuigley

Zubir Ahmed MP for Glasgow South West since 2024 and previously a transplant and vascular surgeon. He said during the debate:
" My job is to move this question on to level headed analyais. I am convinced that our social and palliative care system is not ready to meet the demands of this bill. This bill will not serve its laudable aims for the quick pre-emptive death that many desire and expect"

He said this after Lauren Edwards, who reintroduced the bill, introduced highly emotive stories of traumas suffered by the terminally ill such as "faecal vomiting" and "neck cancer eating away the carotid artery". Other MPs who have extensive medical experience clearly pointed out that such things only occur as a result of catastrophic medical failure!

This was followed by Ashley Dalton MP who has terminal cancer " I have been terrorised with tales of people vomiting up their own faeces. It is vanishingly rare. It is nothing short of irresponsible to scaremonger people lije me into believing our deaths will be horrific. .. . There is not a professional medical body in the land that has backed this legislation as it stands"

I think there should be choice. But this bill was poorly drafted with numerous original safegaurds removed from the original. And a debate on such a significant issue for our society should not include inaccurate emotive information such as above.

(Info from todays Times; commentary by Tom Peck

I am truly disappointed that the bill did not go through, my lovely mum had a horrendous last six months , in and out of hospitals ,on morphine which in itself has side effects she cried to me please let me die and I couldn’t help nor could her GP or the hospital.Its all very well saying palliative care is available it’s few and far between not the hospice's fault but they can only do so much.
I believe our MPs should consult their constituencies not decided that as Christian they have the right to decide on a personal belief.
My mum died 32 years ago but nothing has changed my friend of fifty years died last year with the same agony my mum did.
The hospice came in at the very end but it’s weeks and months before, that people have to suffer.
I should have the right to decide when my time is up, I ok if you have faith but your right as a Christian should not usurp my right.
Of course it’s an emotional subject but how many people are at home or in a hospital now existing not living

All those calling for improved palliative care are correct, it is a lottery what care is available currently. However, do those who would volunteer for assisted dying and face an agonising death have to wait until the powers that be have actually improved the system until it is fit for purpose? How long has social care been a priority on the back burner. And we put our trust in these people? Ridiculous.

I'm horrified too.
Although we need to get it right & I believe there was the strange situation where this couldn't be amended because it needed to go to the Lords in it's exact original form to stop them blocking it.

I feel very cross with the Lords using parliamentary protocols to block the Bill in the previous session of Parliament.Useful amendments are one thing, but an unelected chamber taking upon itself to block a Bill passed by the elected legislature brings them discredit.

Wholeheartedly agree with Monica.We have the benefit of seeing how this has affected people in other countries and therefore have the opportunity to learn only to accept it in its best form. At some point it will be passed, but as it is, has too many flaws. Don’t we all deserve a bill as near as possible to perfect? We shouldn’t accept second best. We are responsible for future generations, a bill which is rushed through into law should NOT be acceptable to anyone and should safeguard EVERYONE.

I've contributed regularly to Dignity in Dying and I'm very disappointed that the bill has failed.
And I've also contributed to our local hospice, which had no room for my dying DH because they can't afford to staff the beds they have. Perhaps that's what we'd all be better doing now that any prospect of choice has gone.
And I agree with those who imply that some Labour MPs made a political choice to align with their leader.

How can this be the right outcome when so many MPs abstained. I would support a referendum on this very contentious issue.
Unfortunately palliative care is patchy and many hospices are reducing their services or closing due to lack of funds. They should not have to rely on donations.
It seems that end of life care is doomed whichever way you vote.

I would never support a referendum on this. Why would you not then have referendums on abortion, death penalty, etc?

For all who want this bill to be on the front burner....you really should email your local MP. Explain you wishes and your disappointment. Ask them how they voted on the bill. If all their inboxes become full...then they really might do something. The electorate really does have the power to change things. If you also say you would strongly look at which party supports this bill, then you would give them your vote.

M0nica

I am glad. We have seen in other countries like The Netherlands and Canada how a legislation intended to offer compassionate release to those terminally ill has transmogrified to death on demand for almost anything and what happens as this develops.

It is not people being persuaded or guided into death that is the danger, but reaching a point where the living just assume that people with certain conditions will choose to die, and, as a corollary that not to choose it is a selfish act.

We have seen this with abortion. Parents who have had a scan and been told that their expected child has a disability are greeted with shock and disapproval if they decide to give birth to the child rather than abort it.

It is not about official attitudes, which will be official and correct but the attitudes of the people they are coming into contact with in and around the hospital and among people who are part of their near and wider networks.

The same wwill happen with assisted death.

Spot on, M0nica.

Galaxy

I would never support a referendum on this. Why would you not then have referendums on abortion, death penalty, etc?

Ooh I don’t I’d support one either.

GrandmaT2010

Wholeheartedly agree with Monica.We have the benefit of seeing how this has affected people in other countries and therefore have the opportunity to learn only to accept it in its best form. At some point it will be passed, but as it is, has too many flaws. Don’t we all deserve a bill as near as possible to perfect? We shouldn’t accept second best. We are responsible for future generations, a bill which is rushed through into law should NOT be acceptable to anyone and should safeguard EVERYONE.

I do agree.

However “at some point” really doesn’t help those who greatly suffered in the past, are suffering now and who will suffer in the future.

It’s not good enough to think that many us on this very site might suffer the indignity and pain of a badly managed death 🥵🥵

Maremia

I think this issue will return.

So keep bring it back until you get the result you want! The bill as presented was badly constructed and better safeguards needed to protect vulnerable people. A slippery slope to ending the lives of those no longer considered useful. Abortion was only meant to be for certain circumstances but is now basically on demand.

It shouldn't be an either/or option.
Die in agony, begging for pain relief, with nobody to call on, or opt for an assisted death.
Palliative care should be bought up to a standard that enables those recieving it to have a real choice about when it's time to call a halt.

I do wonder whether some of the younger passionate supporters of assisted suicide have actually ever seen anyone die. They come up with terrifying scenarios that are very rare, and my heart goes out to those of you who have had to witness one. Sadly there have indeed been some badly managed deaths, but that is not the experience of end of life for most people. Few have any idea what to expect as death approaches, and most have unrealistic fears about it. Dr Kathryn Mannix, with a long history of care of the dying wants to change that. She believes that we lost familiarity with dying over the course of the 20th century, and she wants us all to reclaim that forgotten wisdom. Her short TED talk explores what happens as we die, and explain how knowing more can make us all less afraid. It’s a conversation that has comforted thousands of her dying patients and de-mystified the experience of many bereaved people who attended deathbeds. Let’s be better informed, better prepared, and less afraid about death. Please do watch it, it will really help to explain each stage.

Https://www.ted.talks/kathryn_mannix_what_happens_as_we_die_sep_2023

Apologies, correct link below

www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_mannix_what_happens_as_we_die_sep_2023

MissAdventure

It shouldn't be an either/or option.
Die in agony, begging for pain relief, with nobody to call on, or opt for an assisted death.
Palliative care should be bought up to a standard that enables those recieving it to have a real choice about when it's time to call a halt.

I completely agree.

It’s never a case of either/or and it’s not just about “old” people either.

But the simple fact is that’s it not few who don’t get good palliative care, or die in great pain.

Yes, it must be safeguarded and have a proper procedures.

I honestly think there’s very very few people who would try and “coerce” their relatives into literally signing away their lives. Maybe I’m naive, but I still believe most people are decent, law abiding citizens.

B9exchange

I do wonder whether some of the younger passionate supporters of assisted suicide have actually ever seen anyone die. They come up with terrifying scenarios that are very rare, and my heart goes out to those of you who have had to witness one. Sadly there have indeed been some badly managed deaths, but that is not the experience of end of life for most people. Few have any idea what to expect as death approaches, and most have unrealistic fears about it. Dr Kathryn Mannix, with a long history of care of the dying wants to change that. She believes that we lost familiarity with dying over the course of the 20th century, and she wants us all to reclaim that forgotten wisdom. Her short TED talk explores what happens as we die, and explain how knowing more can make us all less afraid. It’s a conversation that has comforted thousands of her dying patients and de-mystified the experience of many bereaved people who attended deathbeds. Let’s be better informed, better prepared, and less afraid about death. Please do watch it, it will really help to explain each stage.

Https://www.ted.talks/kathryn_mannix_what_happens_as_we_die_sep_2023

Exactly. Katharine Mannix (worth reading both of her excellent books!) provides a balanced and honest account of the many aspects of a person coming to the end of their life. As do many others - both those for and against AD.

If Assisted Dying ever becomes law it MUST be done via a carefully crafted and well researched Act of Parliament with clear consultation with all relevant parties. And without the use of inaccurate and emotive "examples" in debate. That does not describe the AD bill that has just been rejected.

B9exchange

I do wonder whether some of the younger passionate supporters of assisted suicide have actually ever seen anyone die. They come up with terrifying scenarios that are very rare, and my heart goes out to those of you who have had to witness one. Sadly there have indeed been some badly managed deaths, but that is not the experience of end of life for most people. Few have any idea what to expect as death approaches, and most have unrealistic fears about it. Dr Kathryn Mannix, with a long history of care of the dying wants to change that. She believes that we lost familiarity with dying over the course of the 20th century, and she wants us all to reclaim that forgotten wisdom. Her short TED talk explores what happens as we die, and explain how knowing more can make us all less afraid. It’s a conversation that has comforted thousands of her dying patients and de-mystified the experience of many bereaved people who attended deathbeds. Let’s be better informed, better prepared, and less afraid about death. Please do watch it, it will really help to explain each stage.

Https://www.ted.talks/kathryn_mannix_what_happens_as_we_die_sep_2023

Having watched one of her videos I felt she was talking about someone who was not in pain but just slipping away. I am not frightened of dying like that. I am frightened of living my final years in despair and not being able to end it.
A dear friend has recently been diagnosed with Parkinson's. She's always been in favour of assisted dying - more so now. She is very aware of what lies ahead and is now actively planning how to end her life whilst she is still able.

We are not animals!

eddiecat it is worth reading her books

I have been away so hadn’t heard this has been refused. I am another who is disappointed.
The palliative/ hospice option is impractical given scarcity of both.

silverlining48

I have been away so hadn’t heard this has been refused. I am another who is disappointed.
The palliative/ hospice option is impractical given scarcity of both.

And that option nedds extending - absolutely.

As I have said in my previous posts, with quotes from a wise couple of MPs, that is not a reason to pass a badly thought-through Bill drafted without consultation with key groups of both persuasions.