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This is low, even for Reform

(316 Posts)
Cossy Tue 15-Sept-26 20:33:28

Criticise me all you like and accuse me of being obsessed with Reform, if it makes you feel better.

Reform, via Nigel Farage's home affairs spokesman, Zia Yusuf, came under fire after unveiling the game, known as Small Boats Scramble. In a statement he also said the top scorer on the game over the next month would win £5,000.

It’s an online game, with a prize, which appears to comprise Royal Navy boats “capturing” small boats crossings the channel.

Is this really want we want from our political parties?

Frankly, I find this sickening!
I find Reform disgusting.

I no longer recognise this country we are living in, it’s certainly not because of migrants.

Dickens Tue 22-Sept-26 10:46:23

Meandrogrog

For the UK it would mean higher taxes, better services? But a good government that would ensure this happened. The general perception seems to be that too much gets wasted.

It would mean a government - and an electorate - that believed in the principle of an equitable and egalitarian society.

We're not at this point. Because we're fixated on the results of years of mis-rule and mis-management - and determined that a Labour government - or even a Liberal one - is going to ruin the country. Largely because of the belief in kitchen-table economics, and immigration being the one and possibly the only cause of our problems.

Meandrogrog Tue 22-Sept-26 10:56:08

Dickens

Meandrogrog

For the UK it would mean higher taxes, better services? But a good government that would ensure this happened. The general perception seems to be that too much gets wasted.

It would mean a government - and an electorate - that believed in the principle of an equitable and egalitarian society.

We're not at this point. Because we're fixated on the results of years of mis-rule and mis-management - and determined that a Labour government - or even a Liberal one - is going to ruin the country. Largely because of the belief in kitchen-table economics, and immigration being the one and possibly the only cause of our problems.

I fully agree with you about years of misrule by governments of all ilks. That is why I am willing to give Reform a chance.

My interest is in an equitable and egalitarian society too. I am interested in your thoughts as to how to achieve this, given that it is not fair to simply take from the wealthy in a wealth distributing fashion reminiscent of communism.

Those who study and work hard to gain good qualifications should not be punished for doing so. Not saying you would want that either but how do you make it equitable for everybody?

Maremia Tue 22-Sept-26 10:57:09

Self inflicted issue.
Lung cancer through smoking is self inflicted.
Do you suggest these patients should not receive treatment?

Casdon Tue 22-Sept-26 10:57:35

Meandrogrog

Dickens

Meandrogrog

We should already have decent public services given the amount of tax we all pay, its down to Government incompetence and money being wasted.

I agree, we should have decent public services. And cutting waste is obviously a damned good idea - in any department. But if you keep on cutting - cutting beyond the need to eliminate waste and start cutting staff again and again, to save money - but still expect to function adequately, well then you end up with what we have now - depleted services. Those cuts - Austerity - began in 2008. Labour - and I'm not 'flag-waving' for them - have had little time to turn things round, so the main 'incompetence lies with the government that insisted on those rounds of cuts.

How do we achieve systemic fairness? Given the strength of your feeling about this the expectation is that you have some good ideas. Do share.

They're not my ideas. A mixed economy is an established economic system. For brevity's sake - look at Norway (I worked there for 12 years). Norway is highly competitive in the market-place - it has a guiding principle which is, in simplified terms, that to get the best out of your workforce, you have to invest in them - with good public services that look after their health and welfare. It's that simple. Sure, Norwegians pay higher taxes, but what people ignore, is that wages are very much higher than here in the UK.
When my late partner and I returned home from Norway - we were considerably better off financially than when we emigrated. You can figure it out yourself.

Yes I was aware of the higher taxes as I have been on holiday to Norway. Its a beautiful country.

For the UK it would mean higher taxes, better services? But a good government that would ensure this happened. The general perception seems to be that too much gets wasted.

That doesn’t mean the general perception is right. It’s human nature to blame others, particularly governments and their departments for things not being as we would ideally like them to be, we all do that, as nobody wants to pay more taxes. One thing is guaranteed though, and that is that if you cut any services, there will be an outcry, and some people will be worse off.

Maremia Tue 22-Sept-26 11:00:30

Give other parties a chance, but Reform is not actually a party is it?
It's a foreign funded company.
Reform has been given loads of chances recently in Councils all over the UK.
So many successful candidates have already dropped out or been removed.
Why repeat these failures?

friendlygingercat Tue 22-Sept-26 11:23:04

Its time we moved from the clumsy and outdated system of "Parliamentary Democracy" to a system known as Direct Democracy where every British born and naturalised British adult was allowed to vote via their smart phones on every law. The job of parliament would be to propose laws but not to pass them. That would be the responsibility of the citizens as a whole. They have a very modified version of this in Switzerland. We have the technology to do this.

If we had this 60 years ago the large ethnic groups allowed into this country and unfortunately gifted with equal citizenship would only have been allowed in as "guest workers" unless they stayed long enough and worked hard enough to take on British citizenship.

MaizieD Tue 22-Sept-26 11:26:13

newnanny

I agree. This morning I have read in newspapers that migrant households have claimed £12.9 billion pounds in last year. This should not be allowed.

When I checked on this the first thing that was obvious was that only right wing media were reporting this, apart from one rather more balanced view reported here:

coventryobserver.co.uk/news/foreign-national-households-received-record-11-9bn-in-universal-credit-figures-show-national-news-64443/

The first point to make is that the figure being reported is £11.9 billion, not £12,9 billion and is for Universal Credit. The £11,9 billion is about 16% of Universal Credit payments, a percentage which appears to be fairly consistent over a number of years.

Second point, Universal Credit is paid to 'households' and the sum quoted has been paid to households containing one or more foreign national. 'Foreign nationals' will include a :

foreign national and a British spouse;

foreign-national parents and British children;

a foreign national who isn't the claimant;

people who have indefinite leave to remain;

people with EU settled status;

refugees, etc.

DWP says a person must be British, Irish, have right of abode, or have an immigration status permitting recourse to public funds, alongside the normal UC conditions.

(Thank you AI)

Many of these have been long term settled in the UK and have worked and paid UK taxes. In fact, some £4 billion of the UC went to households containing people who were in work, in effect a top up for low income households.

So, claiming that the UC is going to 'migrants' is an inaccurate dog whistle statement.

Graphite Tue 22-Sept-26 11:27:28

Around 6% of UK adults don’t own a smartphone - around 3 million people.

Graphite Tue 22-Sept-26 11:36:05

Yep. Maizie, it's The Telegraph and others dog whistling again.

As soon as I saw the Centre for Migration Control being quoted, my antennae quivered. Not a "centre" at all but Rob Bates who has been working for Farage and Tice for years feeding fabricated or, at the very least, manipulated data to the right wing media who are only too happy to print it without question - just as they did the Reform-funded polls exposed by the Verbatim documentary.

bylinetimes.com/2024/02/15/another-new-anti-immigration-pressure-group-is-launched-from-tufton-street-and-met-with-reams-of-media-coverage/

Meandrogrog Tue 22-Sept-26 11:53:48

Maremia

Self inflicted issue.
Lung cancer through smoking is self inflicted.
Do you suggest these patients should not receive treatment?

Where have I said they should not receive treatment? Does anyone read posts properly? Have you been to specsavers lately!

My post is to do with paying benefits, nothing to do with healthcare!

Meandrogrog Tue 22-Sept-26 11:56:28

friendlygingercat

Its time we moved from the clumsy and outdated system of "Parliamentary Democracy" to a system known as Direct Democracy where every British born and naturalised British adult was allowed to vote via their smart phones on every law. The job of parliament would be to propose laws but not to pass them. That would be the responsibility of the citizens as a whole. They have a very modified version of this in Switzerland. We have the technology to do this.

If we had this 60 years ago the large ethnic groups allowed into this country and unfortunately gifted with equal citizenship would only have been allowed in as "guest workers" unless they stayed long enough and worked hard enough to take on British citizenship.

That is such a good idea but do you think we woild be allowed anywhere near being allowed a vote? Look what happened re Brexit! Best decision ever but boy it didnt go the way the PM wanted. Its what comes of allowing the peasants a voice!

Meandrogrog Tue 22-Sept-26 11:59:11

Graphite

Around 6% of UK adults don’t own a smartphone - around 3 million people.

And 94% do!

Graphite Tue 22-Sept-26 12:05:40

And you would disenfranchise the 3 million who don't?

Of course, it is Reform's plan to disenfranchise up to 10 million people voters anyway.

MaizieD Tue 22-Sept-26 12:10:53

Meandrogrog says:

My interest is in an equitable and egalitarian society too. I am interested in your thoughts as to how to achieve this, given that it is not fair to simply take from the wealthy in a wealth distributing fashion reminiscent of communism.

Which is good to hear, but defending 'wealth' seems somewhat contradictory. Under our current economic 'orthodoxy' money flows inexorably towards the wealthy. You won't get an 'equitable and egalitarian' society in those conditions.

The only way I can see it being achieved is not by depriving the 'wealthy' of their current wealth (as the communists tried to do) but by reducing the opportunity for the wealthy to acquire so much money (which is a national resource which comes from the state) and enabling the non wealthy to acquire more of the wealth which their work produces.

Meandrogrog Tue 22-Sept-26 12:12:35

Graphite

And you would disenfranchise the 3 million who don't?

Of course, it is Reform's plan to disenfranchise up to 10 million people voters anyway.

If they want to vote they should get a smartphone or maybe public libraries would have snartphones they could use. There are ways round everything.

I am increasingly finding certain posters being accusatory. Most of the right wing posters have stopped posting on N&P threads now so it just becomes an echo chamber for Labour supporters.

Meandrogrog Tue 22-Sept-26 12:15:35

MaizieD

Meandrogrog says:

My interest is in an equitable and egalitarian society too. I am interested in your thoughts as to how to achieve this, given that it is not fair to simply take from the wealthy in a wealth distributing fashion reminiscent of communism.

Which is good to hear, but defending 'wealth' seems somewhat contradictory. Under our current economic 'orthodoxy' money flows inexorably towards the wealthy. You won't get an 'equitable and egalitarian' society in those conditions.

The only way I can see it being achieved is not by depriving the 'wealthy' of their current wealth (as the communists tried to do) but by reducing the opportunity for the wealthy to acquire so much money (which is a national resource which comes from the state) and enabling the non wealthy to acquire more of the wealth which their work produces.

I assume by not paying such large salaries to top executives, which is not a bad idea but I assume the large salaries are meant to atract the best so if this incentive doesnt exist, how do you stop the downward spiral from happening? Social engineering is a fascinating topic for discussion.

MaizieD Tue 22-Sept-26 12:16:59

Meandrogrog

friendlygingercat

Its time we moved from the clumsy and outdated system of "Parliamentary Democracy" to a system known as Direct Democracy where every British born and naturalised British adult was allowed to vote via their smart phones on every law. The job of parliament would be to propose laws but not to pass them. That would be the responsibility of the citizens as a whole. They have a very modified version of this in Switzerland. We have the technology to do this.

If we had this 60 years ago the large ethnic groups allowed into this country and unfortunately gifted with equal citizenship would only have been allowed in as "guest workers" unless they stayed long enough and worked hard enough to take on British citizenship.

That is such a good idea but do you think we woild be allowed anywhere near being allowed a vote? Look what happened re Brexit! Best decision ever but boy it didnt go the way the PM wanted. Its what comes of allowing the peasants a voice!

What do you mean by 'it didn't go the way the PM wanted'? WE left the EU, didn't we? That was all that on the voting paper.

I realise that lots of Leave voters had dreams of chucking out all the brown people in the UK but I'm afraid that was not on the ballot paper...

Peacelilydilly Tue 22-Sept-26 12:19:35

What if you were brown and voted leave.

MaizieD Tue 22-Sept-26 12:23:00

Meandrogrog

MaizieD

Meandrogrog says:

My interest is in an equitable and egalitarian society too. I am interested in your thoughts as to how to achieve this, given that it is not fair to simply take from the wealthy in a wealth distributing fashion reminiscent of communism.

Which is good to hear, but defending 'wealth' seems somewhat contradictory. Under our current economic 'orthodoxy' money flows inexorably towards the wealthy. You won't get an 'equitable and egalitarian' society in those conditions.

The only way I can see it being achieved is not by depriving the 'wealthy' of their current wealth (as the communists tried to do) but by reducing the opportunity for the wealthy to acquire so much money (which is a national resource which comes from the state) and enabling the non wealthy to acquire more of the wealth which their work produces.

I assume by not paying such large salaries to top executives, which is not a bad idea but I assume the large salaries are meant to atract the best so if this incentive doesnt exist, how do you stop the downward spiral from happening? Social engineering is a fascinating topic for discussion.

I'm afraid you have a very narrow view of who comprises 'the wealthy'. And quoting top executives doesn't provide a particularly good example. Thames Water is a good example, why should its 'top executives' be paid inflated salaries (and hidden bonuses) for running a failing company? The 2008 Global Financial Disaster was overseen by 'top executives' of banks and financial institutions. Tipped large swathes of the world into depression...

Meandrogrog Tue 22-Sept-26 12:34:28

Peacelilydilly

What if you were brown and voted leave.

I am sure lots did but it doesnt fit in with the racist accusations prevalent on here!

Meandrogrog Tue 22-Sept-26 12:36:39

MaizieD

Meandrogrog

friendlygingercat

Its time we moved from the clumsy and outdated system of "Parliamentary Democracy" to a system known as Direct Democracy where every British born and naturalised British adult was allowed to vote via their smart phones on every law. The job of parliament would be to propose laws but not to pass them. That would be the responsibility of the citizens as a whole. They have a very modified version of this in Switzerland. We have the technology to do this.

If we had this 60 years ago the large ethnic groups allowed into this country and unfortunately gifted with equal citizenship would only have been allowed in as "guest workers" unless they stayed long enough and worked hard enough to take on British citizenship.

That is such a good idea but do you think we woild be allowed anywhere near being allowed a vote? Look what happened re Brexit! Best decision ever but boy it didnt go the way the PM wanted. Its what comes of allowing the peasants a voice!

What do you mean by 'it didn't go the way the PM wanted'? WE left the EU, didn't we? That was all that on the voting paper.

I realise that lots of Leave voters had dreams of chucking out all the brown people in the UK but I'm afraid that was not on the ballot paper...

My leave vote was nothing to do with brown people, I simply felt it better for the UK. I still would vote the same way now, I feel so proud of my British passport.

Cossy Tue 22-Sept-26 12:50:30

Meandrogrog 10:37

Firstly, sincere apologies, my intention was certainly not to “accuse” you nor to “congratulate” myself.

I’ve been in quite an unusual situation work wise, where I have been fortunate enough to work within the private sector within the Insurance and Banking Sectors, mainly within people or project management, though I did start off in low level IT, (or data processing as it was then called), then having a second family, late in life, took local jobs, to be near my children, hence entering the civil service at 50 years old.

I’ve worked in this country and abroad and have been fortunate enough to acquire lots of experience/knowledge in many different sectors.

However, as you can imagine, this didn’t make me a fortune in income.

However, I was brought up in a very privileged middle class family, where my father spent much of his working life travelling and working abroad and I’m afraid as his only child, despite not being my biological father, (married my widowed mother when I was 6, and immediately adopted me), he rather indulged me.

I’ve never cared much about money or possessions, though my parents instilled their very strong work ethic, but alas (for them) not their politics. Very strong conservatives. However, like many others on here I started paid work at 13. I didn’t “need” the extra cash, but was encouraged by my parents to “earn” my pocket money (which my DF matched) and to save (ooops, failed here).

So if I come across as having strong opinions and passion for fellow humans, I make no apology for this, though I fully respect others views and opinions, I sometimes fail to fully understand them.

I’m afraid your comment re your relative’s mental health issues, being “self-inflicted” sadly did come across as lacking in empathy, however unintentional it was. That’s the issue with the written word from strangers.

Your comments, like many others, around claiming benefits, are sometimes showing just part of the full picture.

As stated several times, Universal Credit is an amalgamation of several legacy benefits, which was introduced to be paid monthly (to assist in claimants learning to budget), it incorporates both the old “tax credit” system and housing benefits.

Therefore approximately 50% of those in receipt of this benefit are actually in work, many of whom are in full time, low paid jobs, like Teaching Assistants, Nursery School Assistants, Care Workers, etc etc. even those on the two lowest levels within the Civil Service are eligible for top up if they have high private rents and children.

I understand your position re “vouchers”, in theory a great idea, in practise a terrible idea.

I remember only too well the humiliation attached to “free school meals”.

Why on earth would anyone want to see people humiliated in supermarkets etc, and vouchers could not possibly cover everything, can you imagine the admin costs involved?

Universal Credit is claimed by Working people, people working part time and full time, it’s also claimed by those out of work who cannot work, for example those with severe learning difficulties, those who are severely disabled, those who have progressive medical who might have worked but now no longer can, for example having MS, MND, etc, addicts, prison leavers, veterans, then those who are temporarily out of work, finally the groups who really should be targeted and very quickly, those aged between 18-26, never working, not in education, not in training, then the long term unemployed who still can work and do have transferable skills and those from third generation benefit claimants.

It’s so easy to be “sucked” in by various media who paint an entirely flawed and skewed vision of those people claiming Universal Claimant and this satisfies some people who just look at the numbers and the costs, but not the people.

I can completely understand your frustration with our two party government systems and both Labour and Conservatives failings. What I cannot even begin to comprehend is why you would be so drawn towards Reform.

Reform’s “ideas” and “ideals” couldn’t be further from my own moral compass if they tried and I’m really only just left of centre.

Each to his or her own, but I’d rather chop my own arm off than vote for a party which has succeeded in causing such division in our country and, like it or not, have “encouraged” groups like Patriot Platform and The Pink Ladies not only to form, but to have very loud and extremely aggressive voices.

It’s not just Asylum Seekers who cause issues in our country.

Graphite Tue 22-Sept-26 12:53:52

Meandrogrog

Graphite

And you would disenfranchise the 3 million who don't?

Of course, it is Reform's plan to disenfranchise up to 10 million people voters anyway.

If they want to vote they should get a smartphone or maybe public libraries would have snartphones they could use. There are ways round everything.

I am increasingly finding certain posters being accusatory. Most of the right wing posters have stopped posting on N&P threads now so it just becomes an echo chamber for Labour supporters.

Ordinary single-year Parliamentary sessions record anywhere from 100 to over 300 divisions. In the 2024-26 session there were 515 divisions in the Commons. Do you really think an electorate of over 48 million people is going to participate in that?

I haven’t accused you of anything.

I would appreciate if you would stop these allegations about who is or isn’t posting here. You don’t control who does or doesn’t post and neither does anybody else. People are free to participate and can chose whether or not to do so. I see plenty of voices on either sides of the centre divide.

Nor do you know who I vote for.

Cossy Tue 22-Sept-26 13:06:10

Btw Meandrogrog

Two observations on your recent comments re Switzerland and their voting habits and capabilities;

1) Their population is under 10 million. 27% of whom are foreign nationals.

2) It’s very doubtful public libraries would be able to do very much of the things you suggest, many were closed due to austerity.

Our smaller libraries in our area are only open due to public demand, petitions, protests, they are largely staffed by volunteers.

Our larger “City” library was funded partially by a newly opened local University, which has now closed and relocated to other existing campuses, leaving the library at risk of closer. However, phew, we do have a Labour led council (for the time being) so they are likely to “save” our big library.

MaizieD Tue 22-Sept-26 13:10:01

Meandrogrog

MaizieD

Meandrogrog

friendlygingercat

Its time we moved from the clumsy and outdated system of "Parliamentary Democracy" to a system known as Direct Democracy where every British born and naturalised British adult was allowed to vote via their smart phones on every law. The job of parliament would be to propose laws but not to pass them. That would be the responsibility of the citizens as a whole. They have a very modified version of this in Switzerland. We have the technology to do this.

If we had this 60 years ago the large ethnic groups allowed into this country and unfortunately gifted with equal citizenship would only have been allowed in as "guest workers" unless they stayed long enough and worked hard enough to take on British citizenship.

That is such a good idea but do you think we woild be allowed anywhere near being allowed a vote? Look what happened re Brexit! Best decision ever but boy it didnt go the way the PM wanted. Its what comes of allowing the peasants a voice!

What do you mean by 'it didn't go the way the PM wanted'? WE left the EU, didn't we? That was all that on the voting paper.

I realise that lots of Leave voters had dreams of chucking out all the brown people in the UK but I'm afraid that was not on the ballot paper...

My leave vote was nothing to do with brown people, I simply felt it better for the UK. I still would vote the same way now, I feel so proud of my British passport.

I didn't say that your vote had anything to do with brown people, but from seeing a great many reactions on social media it's apparent that some people's votes did.

However, what I was really interested in was why you said that 'it didn't go the way the PM wanted'. Were you referring to Cameron or to Johnson? I assumed Johnson, but on reflection it was probably Cameron.

My British passport annoys me intensely. It speaks to me of a diminished and divided nation.