Burnham - rejoin Europe in one shape or form?

MaizieD I was just pondering the fiscal rules imposed on EU states (I am confined to barracks for a few days).

I assume if we were to rejoin or align with the EU any future U.K. government would be unable to return to any form of Keynesian economics.

GrannyGravy13

MaizieD I was just pondering the fiscal rules imposed on EU states (I am confined to barracks for a few days).

I assume if we were to rejoin or align with the EU any future U.K. government would be unable to return to any form of Keynesian economics.

It won't make any difference the UK has only been choosing the parts of Keynes that wins elections for decades.

I suspect that the ‘fiscal rules’ may lose their potency in the face of individual member states’ financial crises. After all, no-one at the ECB worried about ‘fiscal rules’ when injecting huge amounts of euros to cover the Covid crisis…

The UK wasn’t worried about ‘fiscal rules’ during Covid or when bailing out the banks in 2008 (when it was still in the EU)

None of these episodes caused any real detriment to the EU’s or the UK’s economies.

They’re a political choice, not a god given commandment…

David49

GrannyGravy13

MaizieD I was just pondering the fiscal rules imposed on EU states (I am confined to barracks for a few days).

I assume if we were to rejoin or align with the EU any future U.K. government would be unable to return to any form of Keynesian economics.

It won't make any difference the UK has only been choosing the parts of Keynes that wins elections for decades.

I’m afraid that your grasp of economics, and of Keynesianism in particular is decidedly shaky, David. Thatcher knocked Keynesianism on the head and it has never recovered since…

MaizieD

I suspect that the ‘fiscal rules’ may lose their potency in the face of individual member states’ financial crises. After all, no-one at the ECB worried about ‘fiscal rules’ when injecting huge amounts of euros to cover the Covid crisis…

The UK wasn’t worried about ‘fiscal rules’ during Covid or when bailing out the banks in 2008 (when it was still in the EU)

None of these episodes caused any real detriment to the EU’s or the UK’s economies.

They’re a political choice, not a god given commandment…

Yes, but the QE was in response to an emergency, not profligate spending, or lower taxes, you can't compare Covid to day to day business.
For the welfare of the country the money had to be spent and the cost paid.

As I’m not advocating profligate spending or lower taxes I don’t see the relevance of your comment, David

You are advocating increasing borrowing/creating money, by convention creation with QE is treated as borrowing. Higher borrowing is seen as very negative which is the view of IMF and International lenders.

We can't divorce ourselves from international opinion, there are 2 ways to reduce borrowing, increase GDP (work harder) or increase taxation

So far Burnham is continuing Starmers policy that revenue should equal day to day spending, it all sounds very sensible policy. My own view is that more borrowing is justified for growth but I don't believe polititians can be trusted to ringfence extra to do that

The IMF has no control over our economy, David. Its opinion can be safely ignored.

If you can't understand the utter idiocy of 'fiscal rules' and the resultant 'austerity' I'm sorry, but I've tried

MaizieD

The IMF has no control over our economy, David. Its opinion can be safely ignored.

If you can't understand the utter idiocy of 'fiscal rules' and the resultant 'austerity' I'm sorry, but I've tried

OK then Maisie if you create money what would you spend it on and what effect would it have on sterling value and interest rates

Bearing in mind Japan has done exactly what you suggest and has negative everything, currency crashed and nobody wants to lend to them

How many trillion is it going to cost the uk to rejoin?

MT62

How many trillion is it going to cost the uk to rejoin?

How much has leaving cost us over the past ten years?

They reckon we would save money instead of paying millions every day, that the money could be pumped back into the NHS. That’s why I voted to leave.

MT62

They reckon we would save money instead of paying millions every day, that the money could be pumped back into the NHS. That’s why I voted to leave.

And was that money pumped back into the NHS? Did energy prices come down ( another vote leave promise?).

MT62

They reckon we would save money instead of paying millions every day, that the money could be pumped back into the NHS. That’s why I voted to leave.

They were spreading lies 10 yrs ago and it hasn't changed still there are fools that think we are better off out of EU, hands up those who think they are better off now.

David49

MT62

They reckon we would save money instead of paying millions every day, that the money could be pumped back into the NHS. That’s why I voted to leave.

They were spreading lies 10 yrs ago and it hasn't changed still there are fools that think we are better off out of EU, hands up those who think they are better off now.

The reason this country is in a mess isn't just because of Brexit.

Foolish to ignore the damage BREXIT has done.
It has done a lot of real damage.
That Red Bus promise was a lie.

Maremia

Foolish to ignore the damage BREXIT has done.
It has done a lot of real damage.
That Red Bus promise was a lie.

They all lie Maremia!
I don’t trust any of our politicians.

Well time has shown that voters who believed the politicians that commissioned the Red Bus promise were foolish top believe such lies.

We didn't need politicians to tell us the damage that Brexit has caused- there are enough business leaders, economists who tell us and the data evidence speaks for itself.

Foolish to let Brexit damage continue year after year any more. It's not the only problem the country faces, but it is one that each successive government, of whatever party. has a duty and responsibility to face and manage.

I was obviously naive to think they would hold on to their promise of doing so.
No I don’t trust any politician.

MT62

I was obviously naive to think they would hold on to their promise of doing so.
No I don’t trust any politician.

David49

Just as there were politicians who shaped the lies plastered over the red bus there were many others telling the truth about potential risks of leaving the EU.

It's up to us how to discern lies and propaganda. Believing no one, no experts and no data wouldn't get us very far. We all would just end up as passive, disengaged recipients of any political strategy.

The only judgement I trust is my own, in the case of Brexit the verdict was:-

You dont turn your back on a customer that 50% of your trade is with.

and

You dont ask for divorce then expect special concessions - you cut ties and paddle your own canoe.

Polititians were lying brazenly

Rejoin EU?
Events will overtake. They have already started.

There are no events that will overtake the harm caused by Brexit. No events that would stop UK attempts to build a stronger relationship with the EU or even at a future date consider rejoining.

Global events- Trump and Putin have caused enormous harm, including economic harm- e.g. rise in fuel prices (Iran) , food and crop prices (Ukraine). However neither Trump or Putin stop the UK building a better relationship with the EU. On the contrary, it would in fact strengthen the UK in the face of the risks posed by Trump and Putin.

^ No events that would stop UK attempts to build a stronger relationship with the EU or even at a future date consider rejoining.^

We will come back to this conversation in a year's time!
Maybe 6 months.