Burnham - rejoin Europe in one shape or form?

specki4eyes

It's not a case of GB deciding whether to have a referendum!
I live in the EU and, this is a generalisation, but many Europeans are genuinely perplexed and offended that Britain chose to leave after benefitting from all the help and subsidies they received during the EU years.
I'm guessing that if Britain tried to re enter, the first condition would be that we lose Sterling and switch to the Euro. None of the concessions GB previously negotiated would apply. Imagine how that would pan out!
It's clear that over half of the UK electorate is too stupid to understand this. I put it down to the dumbing down of the education system.
Peace in our time..this was Churchill's mantra after the WWII. YEAH right...look where our precious Britain is now...broken, crumbling, anarchy taking over.
I'm glad I'm old.
Ps it might not have been WC who said that so don't jump all over me. That was the essence of his idea for a united Europe with UK fully included

I think you’re right in many respects, however I don’t agree that “ignorance” of EU affairs is due to “dumbing down”.

I think it’s due to many factors, lack of education around politics in general, lack of interest in current affairs from a minority in our electorate and, most importantly, the lack of critical thinking, research and ability to challenge, coupled with simply accepting what is “told” to them by the most vocal and loudest people.

Our own children often comment on some of their peers lack of knowledge and interest in current affairs and politics specifically.

“Peace for our time” was Neville Chamberlain waving his piece of paper after meeting Hitler in 1938. Look where that ended up. Churchill said “we are with Europe but not of it” so although he approved of links did not take us in at the start when we would have been a founder state with more say in its organisation. As it was Charles de Gaulle twice vetoed Britain’s entry in the 60’s. Edward Heath took the UK into the European Economic Community through parliament without a public vote in 1973. Labour came into power under Harold Wilson and acting on his election manifesto a referendum was held in 1975 as to whether the UK should remain in the EEC. The vote was in favour.

Just thought I would put that as there seem so many misconceptions on here. Political decisions are taken without our say so by politicians who think they know better. The EU is a far more political animal than it was back then but it is changing all the time and I think we need to be careful of a grass is greener scenario. It is not the same as 10 years ago. “You can’t step in the same river twice” as Heraclitus said.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

To be fair maizie they have to put up with the questions that they are asked, and the presenters are a tad unimaginative at times.

Totally agree on that 👍

At ministerial level they should have had proper media training and be able to brush off silly questions and bring to focus of the interview to what they want to talk about.

I gather that a good comms operation will have a plan for these daily rounds with the object of controlling the news agenda. Where is it now?

On TRIP😄😄😄😄

MaizieD I think Labour’s comms team is AB, a one man band

I would have hoped they would have learnt from Keir Starmer’s tenure, that their communication is rather poor.

GrannyGravy13

MaizieD I think Labour’s comms team is AB, a one man band

I would have hoped they would have learnt from Keir Starmer’s tenure, that their communication is rather poor.

Agree completely!

25Avalon

“Peace for our time” was Neville Chamberlain waving his piece of paper after meeting Hitler in 1938. Look where that ended up. Churchill said “we are with Europe but not of it” so although he approved of links did not take us in at the start when we would have been a founder state with more say in its organisation. As it was Charles de Gaulle twice vetoed Britain’s entry in the 60’s. Edward Heath took the UK into the European Economic Community through parliament without a public vote in 1973. Labour came into power under Harold Wilson and acting on his election manifesto a referendum was held in 1975 as to whether the UK should remain in the EEC. The vote was in favour.

Just thought I would put that as there seem so many misconceptions on here. Political decisions are taken without our say so by politicians who think they know better. The EU is a far more political animal than it was back then but it is changing all the time and I think we need to be careful of a grass is greener scenario. It is not the same as 10 years ago. “You can’t step in the same river twice” as Heraclitus said.

Good post 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Whitewavemark2

Sarnia

Andy Burnham getting himself tied up in knots with his latest claim that Russia influenced the referendum on Brexit.
On one hand he says they interfered, despite that being refuted at the time and on the other hand that the result was legitimate.
Make your mind up Burnham, it can't be both.
He is desperate to rejoin an EU that has changed since we left. The far right are making great strides in Europe and our GDP is better than France, Germany and Spain so I fail to see why we want to saddle ourselves with that.
Stand fast with Europe over defence but turning back the clock and conveniently ignoring a democratic referendum is not the way to do it.

But you see two things can be true at once.

Yes, there is clear evidence that Russia tried to interfere both in the referendum and the 2019 election.

No, there is no substantial evidence, that it materially affected the result.

With regard to the EU. If the U.K. cam negotiate improved trading agreements, which resulted in U.K. businesses becoming more profitable, and our GDP rising, why wouldn’t you? It is a no brainer.

Therefore, if as you say, it did not affect the result all the more reason to honour the democratic referendum result.

Defence and trade links, fair enough. Both make sense but full membership, no.

Who is suggesting that we row back on the referendum result? Nobody as far as I can see.

Whitewavemark2

Who is suggesting that we row back on the referendum result? Nobody as far as I can see.

I don't think it's Burnham who is getting tied up in knots here

Therefore, if as you say, it did not affect the result all the more reason to honour the democratic referendum result.

No-one is saying that it didn't affect the result. They are saying that there is no substantial evidence that it did. In other words, no-one knows one way or the other. There's no particular imperative to perpetually honour a dodgy referendum result, particularly when a large number of those who voted for Brexit are dying and young people think it was a mistake.

I'm not sure the EU looks such a great place right now, it's not the Europe of 2016 it faces severe economic, political and structural pressures that appear to be intensifying. The recent riots in France and to a lesser extent Belgium, although nothing new for France, points to the far left agitators from the Melenchon camp driving them along. I do wonder how that will bode if the party of Marine Le Pen becomes the party of government next year. I have cousins in France, and one has often told me he doesn't think it would be unfeasible, given the marked divisions, that France has, that the country could tip into a state of civil war. Although I guess that could be said of anywhere right now where the two political extremes, both dangerous in their own way are hell bent on steering a country in different directions. There's little opportunity to meet in the middle as increasingly the centre ground appears to be shafted. Spain is the next country to go to the polls and again the far right have strong support there. It is well documented the most scary of all is the AFD who are coming across as an incarnation of the Nazis, gaining ground in Germany. Are these the bedfellows a Labour government would want to deal with? France, more than this country seem to have an inability to deal with its budget problems, struggling to pass a 2027 budget. The annual deficit fuelled by surging interest rates puts its GDP rate at 120% which leaves our own pretty dire heading towards a 100% of GDP in the shade. If we were to rejoin, I'm sure there'd be pressure to adopt the Euro, which at present isn't a particularly attractive prospect either as it's at a 17 month low against the dollar $1.12. Meanwhile Italy's GDP is a staggering 140%. In any case I thought member states had to follow strict fiscal rules regarding their budget deficits and national debt. I don't see how the Euro works when there is such a disparity between different economic output and productivity and a vastly varying attitude to some nations outlandish debts surely an exasperation for the more stable economies.

It makes me laugh that it’s only called a dodgy referendum result by the losing side.
I thought long and hard before I voted to stay in the EU as we had various perks hard won by previous politicians here some time ago.
But I fully understood why many people wanted to leave.
It would now do us harm by trying to rejoin, and even more harm to have yet another horrible divisive referendum after the next GE.😫

You can’t know that it would do us harm if we rejoined Oreo, it’s just assumption. The world is changing so rapidly at the moment, that who knows where we will be by 2029, and how much we and Europe will want or need us to rejoin in the best interests of us all.

Casdon

You can’t know that it would do us harm if we rejoined Oreo, it’s just assumption. The world is changing so rapidly at the moment, that who knows where we will be by 2029, and how much we and Europe will want or need us to rejoin in the best interests of us all.

You cant know that it would be better either. It is unknowable as we cannot know what it would be like now had we stayed in.

Meandrogrog

Casdon

You can’t know that it would do us harm if we rejoined Oreo, it’s just assumption. The world is changing so rapidly at the moment, that who knows where we will be by 2029, and how much we and Europe will want or need us to rejoin in the best interests of us all.

You cant know that it would be better either. It is unknowable as we cannot know what it would be like now had we stayed in.

It couldn’t be any worse.

Meandrogrog

Casdon

You can’t know that it would do us harm if we rejoined Oreo, it’s just assumption. The world is changing so rapidly at the moment, that who knows where we will be by 2029, and how much we and Europe will want or need us to rejoin in the best interests of us all.

You cant know that it would be better either. It is unknowable as we cannot know what it would be like now had we stayed in.

I didn’t say it would be better, you’ve just made the same point I did?

Casdon

Meandrogrog

Casdon

You can’t know that it would do us harm if we rejoined Oreo, it’s just assumption. The world is changing so rapidly at the moment, that who knows where we will be by 2029, and how much we and Europe will want or need us to rejoin in the best interests of us all.

You cant know that it would be better either. It is unknowable as we cannot know what it would be like now had we stayed in.

I didn’t say it would be better, you’ve just made the same point I did?

Yes true, but I doubt very much that it will be in our best interests to rejoin. I always felt the UK abided by the rules whereas some didnt, which was to our detriment.

In a way, Meandrogrog has a point.

France didn't exactly break any rules. I was living there in 2005 when they took it upon themselves, in that stubborn look after themselves manner, to rewrite the fiscal agreement which ironically they themselves had written. It was a case of breaching the core requirement to keep their annual public budget deficits below 3% of GDP
I remember Blair and Chirac being at loggerheads for ages, and neither would back down. Of course, Britain agreed to give in as usual. So yes, the UK abided by the rules.

Plus ça change and all that. The underlying tensions won't go away that easily

Good post TerriBull at 14.30.

We are brothers under the skin with the rest of Europe though, if it comes to mutual survival.

Casdon

You can’t know that it would do us harm if we rejoined Oreo, it’s just assumption. The world is changing so rapidly at the moment, that who knows where we will be by 2029, and how much we and Europe will want or need us to rejoin in the best interests of us all.

Who’s fault is that? That it’s changing so rapidly?
I don’t want to rejoin the EU- I voted out!
Surely he AB can’t just take us back in without another referendum?

Rejoining as a full member is not on the agenda there are many was that cooperation could help the UK economically, but it will mean accepting their terms and regulations.

If rejoining meant accepting the Euro and Freedom of Movement a positive referendum result is not certain, loosing monetary control and the BoE would bea dealbreaker for many

MT62

Casdon

You can’t know that it would do us harm if we rejoined Oreo, it’s just assumption. The world is changing so rapidly at the moment, that who knows where we will be by 2029, and how much we and Europe will want or need us to rejoin in the best interests of us all.

Who’s fault is that? That it’s changing so rapidly?
I don’t want to rejoin the EU- I voted out!
Surely he AB can’t just take us back in without another referendum?

It’s not about you Meandrogrog, it’s about the electorate as a whole. If Labour win the next election on a manifesto which states that rejoining the EU is a priority, which is by no means certain at this point, then they will have the mandate to take discussions further. They have made it quite clear that it will not be happening in this parliament.

David49

Rejoining as a full member is not on the agenda there are many was that cooperation could help the UK economically, but it will mean accepting their terms and regulations.

If rejoining meant accepting the Euro and Freedom of Movement a positive referendum result is not certain, loosing monetary control and the BoE would bea dealbreaker for many

I get the feeling that the EU is getting to a point of crisis over the imposition of an economic‘ orthodoxy’ which is causing its economic decline and its social cohesion. If the UK had a more enlightened understanding of how to implement a political economy, as it did post WW2 when it was able to implement radical policies which improved the lives of its citizens, it could make a valuable contribution to redirecting the EU’S overriding policy and so be able to influence its own terms.

Even though we lack this enlightened economic understanding I still think that we should be ultimately be back in the EU for both access to a huge accessible market and improved security. In the midst of its growing chaos we could well do it on better terms than people are predicting..