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Pedants' corner

Going forward!

(180 Posts)
Lilygran Tue 21-Jan-14 10:10:24

This expression was used three times in quick succession on Today this morning. Once it meant 'in future' (so why didn't he say that?). Twice it meant nothing at all. The other meaningless expression around at the moment is 'to be fair'. Sometimes it seems to mean 'to be honest'. Where do these expressions come from? And why do they spread so quickly?

grumppa Sat 01-Feb-14 20:52:29

Oops, this is Pedants' Corner; so for consistency should have said "so he accepts the compliment!"

margaretm74 Sun 02-Feb-14 10:02:17

A news report stated yesterday that apostrophes are being removed from street signs - presumably to be bought as a job lot by the nations's' greengrocer's' s

Aka Sun 02-Feb-14 10:26:31

Then there is a job waiting for an active pedant with a thick, indelible felt-tipped pen!

I used to live close to a road called RALPH'S WIFE'S LANE but written without benefit off apostrophes. The locals always ensured it was correctly apostrophised however even going to the bother of cutting out and using black masking tape grin

margaretm74 Sun 02-Feb-14 10:38:13

We saw a sign in Australia which informed us:
CROCODILES DO NOT SWIM HERE

SiL assumed it was safe in that particular area.

Aka Sun 02-Feb-14 11:23:53

Point taken M74!! shock

Elegran Sun 02-Feb-14 11:26:19

Like the ones that say SLOW CHILDREN CROSSING. Tell them to get a move on!

Nelliemoser Sun 02-Feb-14 11:43:48

They have "Slow Men Workin" near us.

Nelliemoser Sun 02-Feb-14 11:46:45

Oops! What ever happened to that final "G" "SLOW MEN WORKING"!

Ana Sun 02-Feb-14 11:51:39

That sign's probably meant to be without punctuation, Nellie! grin

margaretm74 Sun 02-Feb-14 11:51:56

Yes, apologies a missing !

To be fair, it was set out thus:

CROCODILES
DO NOT
SWIM HERE

and we never know if SIL is ditsy or constantly winding up BIL. The former, we think.

But this was on a small beach in a popular tourist resort. The locals would just say "You stupid or what? Eh?"

thatbags Mon 03-Feb-14 06:43:56

I've just read something that explains the use of "I'm good" in place of I'm fine. The sentence, written by an American, was this: "You groomed him good too". She was speaking of an animal that looked good in a photograph; it had been groomed to look good. So the American usage is explained by the fact that they use "good" where we would use "well" or "fine".

Interestingly, good has a Germanic origin and fine has a Latin origin. That's interesting because the swear words that are regarded as the most "offensive" tend to be the ones with a Germanic origin. Their Latin-derived equivalents are often not even regarded as swear words. e.g. fuck/have sexual intercourse with.

grumppa Mon 03-Feb-14 07:36:26

And in German 'gut' means well, as well as good. But UK English retains the distinction between adjective and adverb, at least for now.

thatbags Mon 03-Feb-14 07:44:52

But Chambers Dictionary accepts the US usage as "informal" or "dialect". Nothing wrong with informal everyday greetings nor with dialect.

It wouldn't surprise me if the same people who object to the US use of good in place of fine or well would also support the retention of British dialect words because they enrich the language.

thatbags Mon 03-Feb-14 07:47:13

People who speak English in the UK respond to "how are you?" with "I'm good, thanks", therefore it is UK Englsih now too regardless of what the language police say.

thatbags Mon 03-Feb-14 07:53:24

UK English is what people speak. Always has been and always will be.

Written English is more formal than spoken English but both are proper English.

When I was doing a TEFL course another student wanted to know what was the "correct" reply (so they could teach it) to a request such as "Can I borrow your ruler?" Our instructor answered his query by asking me the question (I was with a different group and didn't know about the discussion the student and instructor were having). My answer was this: "Yeah. Sure" and I handed him my ruler. I'm a native English speaker. What I said is 'normal', 'proper' English whether it's what someone else would say or not.

Same applies to "I'm good." No, it doesn't mean "I'm virtuous" in the context we'vebeen discussing. The context makes obvious what it means. Context matters.

feetlebaum Mon 03-Feb-14 08:19:01

Americans are scared of adverbs...

thatbags Mon 03-Feb-14 09:36:00

Evidence please, feetle.

margaretm74 Mon 03-Feb-14 09:56:02

DD2 is teaching English to adults, now teaching advanced course which is colloquial English. Younger people tend to say I'm good rather than well or fine I think.
Like "stonking" - where did that come from - and disappear to?

MIL used to get annoyed when people answered "I'm fine". She said you should always answer with an honest explanation of the state of your health! And she did.

grumppa Mon 03-Feb-14 09:59:41

I hope the TEFL course student was taught the difference between "may" and "can"!

And of course context matters and I know what people mean when they say "I'm good." And I don't object to US usage in a US context. That doesn't stop it jarring when I hear it in a UK context.

margaretm74 Mon 03-Feb-14 10:04:41

Perhaps because they all travel so much these days and pick up idioms from all nationalities.

MamaCaz Mon 03-Feb-14 10:28:48

I must be in the minority here:
I find "may I ... ?" so old fashioned/formal that I couldn't bring myself to use it!

The only context I can think of where it still sounds natural to me is when it stands alone ( "May I?"), as an abbreviated form of things such as "Is it alright if I help myself?"

thatbags Mon 03-Feb-14 10:32:43

grumppa, people say Can I borrow...? in my world usually, not may I borrow? TEFL is to teach people whose first language isn't English how to communicate effectively. Effective communicaton doesn't always need to be pedantically grammatically correct. Using expressions native speakers use is just fine whether grammatical or not.

thatbags Mon 03-Feb-14 10:35:06

It'll just have to jar then, grumppa. It can't be easy to have to live with so much jarring. Perhaps you could get treatment – like learning how to chill a bit about unimportant matters wink.

(spoken kindly with a twinkle in my eye)

MamaCaz Mon 03-Feb-14 10:51:27

Listen carefully next time you hear someone asked "How are you?" (or a similar question).

The spontaneous reply is nearly always "Yes!"
(Admittedly, often followed up next with "I'm good", as already discussed)

"Yes" still seems odd to me in that context.

Before you say it, I know I should get a life! grin

Atqui Mon 03-Feb-14 10:53:45

I wonder if people on TEFL courses are taught to intersperse there conversation copiously with 'like'.