When is a poem a poem?

I used to tell my students that poetry was painting a picture with words so anything above the mundane is acceptable in my opinion.

I heard that poem, I thought it was good.

"what oft was said, but ne'er so well expressed" is one idea about poetry.

But I like the concept of defamiliarization - presenting the everyday and the commonplace in such a way that we can see it anew. "To make the stone stoney."

If it doesn't rhyme, scan or flow then it is beautiful prose.

To pretend it is a poem is like proclaiming the Emperor's new Clothes.

If it doesn't rhyme, scan or flow then it's just prose. Not necessarily beautiful prose.

What's the definition of a poem anyway?

I'll go with your idea of 'defamiliarisation', Ariadne. A quotation that rings true with me is:

'Genuine poetry can communicate before it is understood.'

T. S. Eliot

It was good Phoenix - but surely not a poem? My pedant mother would have called it prose, but that no longer seems to exist.

Ana quite right! Nor is poetry always beautiful.

There was a poetry module on an OU course I did two years ago. We were taught that one way of writing a poem was to write a piece of prose and then break it up into lines, so for example:

There was a poetry module
on an OU course
I did two years
ago
We were taught that one way of writing a poem
was to write
a piece of prose and then
break it up
into lines

Yes, I thought it was mad, too, but it can actually be quite thought provoking if you get it right.

Yes, I was taught that when I did my English 'A' Level many years ago, so it was considered a form of poetry even back then - just look at e e cummings.

i carry your heart with me (i carry it in

my heart) i am never without it (anywhere

i go you go,my dear; and whatever is done

by only me is your doing, my darling)

i fear

no fate (for you are my fate my sweet) i want

no world (for beautiful you are my world, my true)

and it’s you are whatever a moon has always meant

and whatever a sun will always sing is you

here is the deepest secret nobody knows

(here is the root of the root and the bud of the bud

and the sky of the sky of a tree called life; which grows

higher than soul can hope or mind can hide)

and this is the wonder that's keeping the stars apart

i carry your heart (i carry it in my heart)

I like that, janerowena. Do you know it by heart or did you have to look it up?

So, if that's poetry - what's prose?

Good question, NfkDumpling! I don't feel qualified to answer but I'm sure someone will.

As far as I can remember prose is the written word as in a novel.

You can also have a prose poem which is a piece of prose written in a poetic way.

"Poetry is violence committed on ordinary language." A bit extreme, but it means that poetry can break the rules, of punctuation, of grammar, of structure, to shake us into re reading and re listening. Defamiliarization again.

You can use the structure of a poem to reflect the content; for example to illustrate distress. If a poem is about madness then a random and incoherent structure would be good perhaps. I would far rather have a poem that didn't rhyme thatn one of those that rhymes no matter what - where rhyme is forced even if it destroys the meaning.

If it is structured, lucid, (can still be demanding!) and organised in familiar ways, then I would say it is prose.

A poem should always have a rhyme
If not it could be a waste of time

"You had a name once, a proper name, not cat, or kitty or puss
You offered companionship on your own terms, acquiescing to a caress, or bestowing your own blessing, rubbing your head against his leg.

You never counted years, and now he has lost the knack.
The gnarled hand reaches out to stroke the bony back.

Your name, your proper name is still there,
Somewhere deep inside the old mans head.
But no matter that he cannot recall it now, at this exact moment.
The gas fire sputters,
And in the warm, quiet room, companionship is enough."

Lovely. Thank you, P

You're welcome, Ariadne ! But, is it a poem? Only one rhyme, does it scan?

Grans, you tell me!

In my mind it is - just.

There is a proper pause, a breath at the end of each line.

It has a lilt to it and wonderful imagery too.

So, it could be a poem - just.

(Was that a poem?)

Perhaps the definition of a "poem" could be a personal thing, like art and music.

The discordant (well, to me at least) sounds of some modern jazz are not music, but they are to others. Similarly, what to me seem random daubs of colour on a canvas, might be viewed as art by others.

Just a thought!

Poem, prose poem, I just love your work Phoenix.

I love the way you let us see the old man and the old cat "The gnarled hand reaches out to stoke the bony back." It reminded me of the way cats don't show their age very much but do become thinner.

It's lovely as it stands but using as an example the rhyming couplet ending in "knack" and "back" you could tighten the poem up. "Puss and "Caress" is a good half rhyme too.

Hope you don't mind my comments? I used to teach English among other things.

That's quite beautiful, Phoenix.

It is, Phoenix.

And nfkdumpling that is very clever!

As to ee cummings, I loved his poetry as a teenager. I sort of know the poem off by heart, but was glad I looked that one up as I had a few words wrong and lines omitted.

I didn't like him at first, my childish part wanted rhymes in everything, but his poems are truly beautiful. Now I sometimes write haiku poems just for fun, in my head.

These are usually three lines, the first line 5 syllables long, the second, seven, the third, five. No rhyme needed. The content is usually nature, but latterly love and comedy have become fashionable. I think of it as the forerunner to Twitter by hundreds of years, because you have to convey a picture or feeling in very few words.

So taking Phoenix's lovely poem

Old man strokes old cat,
Peace and warmth is enough for now
In front of the fire

I wonder if a poem is a poem if that is how the writer sees it?