grammar question

It annoys me when people say, 'I don't drive', when they mean they cant drive. Its dishonest. Example DD can drive but chooses not to so she doesn't drive but some cant and say they don't.

Well if they can't drive then they don't drive what's dishonest about that?

The latter is simply a consequence of the former.

Good old fashioned grammar, along with good old domestic science should come back onto the curriculum. No-one, these days, seems to think kids should be told they are wrong or fail at things.

Bring back Domestic Science is almost worthy of a thread of its own Bothie

It's not true that kids aren't told that they are wrong sometimes; nor is it true that they never fail, and know they have failed, at things.

I actually think that experiencing a few failures is good for a person.

Not taught grammar?
Here is a link to just part of the grammar tests taken by eleven year olds in England.
www.satstestsonline.co.uk/past_papers/SPAG/SPAG_Paper_1_short_answer_questions.pdf

Other past papers, including maths and science are here.
www.satstestsonline.co.uk/sto_past_papers.aspx

Thank you Mamie. Of course kids are taught grammar, and from a very young age too.

But not the way perhaps we were taught- eg sentence analysis, etc. When I used to teach German in UK (and French my language)- I was puzzled that English kids didn't know what a 'direct object' or an 'indirect object' was and discussed it with our English dept. They said it bore little difference in the use of English- and I agreed. I always spent 1 week at the end of the first half-term teaching in English about 'subject, direct and indirect object, etc' as it is almost impossible to learn German without understanding this. I just accepted that the Grammar the children needed for German was of not particular use at this stage for the children in English, and got on with it.

I think you would find that they are now GJ! (They certainly were when I was observing English lessons ten years ago). I don't doubt that children sometimes forget things that they have been taught though.

So, luggage, mimic, blushing? Who is this young upstart from Stratford inventing words all over the place? He has even invented the word pedant. What is that supposed to mean? The English language is going to the dogs....
Etc etc

Going back a few posts - Ethel, I would say, for example, " I don't speak Chinese" rather than I can't. The latter implies an admission of failure or regret. Saying you don't drive is acceptable imo.

BTW GJ, that reminds me of a very funny conversation with my French neighbours about the past tense of avoir verbs and the preceding direct object. No, it doesn't agree they said. Yes it does, said I. Oh well yes maybe I can hear it, said one.
Which proves, as you say, that you don't always need to know all the grammar of your own language unless you need it to understand a foreign language.

That's interesting gj. The person who teaches me German at U3A has often commented on her former pupils' lack of English grammar. As you say, it is essential to be aware of what direct and indirect objects are to get the right German article. She did, however, find she had to teach other fairly basic concepts that one would expect them to know in English. She retired only recently from full -time education. My daughter is head of MFL, teaching French and Spanish and often comments on the girls' poor grasp of English grammar, and this in a grammar school. Those of us in the German class have all had a good, old-fashioned grounding in the basics of our own language from way back. But I take your point that it may not be essential to be too analytical in teaching English.

Did you have a look at the test for eleven-year-olds Bellanonna? The children do learn grammar.
There was a time in the late seventies and eighties when we spent far less time teaching grammar and far more time writing with children in primary school. The balance was wrong and the literacy strategy was brought in to improve the teaching of grammar, which it did. You could criticise the speed at which it was brought in, the lack of materials at the beginning and the number of changes. You could not argue that children in primary schools do not "do" grammar anymore.

I am not at all convinced by this notion of a Golden Age, when everyone was brilliant at English grammar. From my observations, plenty of people in all age groups make mistakes in grammar and spelling.
If I wanted to be really provocative I might say that pedants who are only interested in grammatical constructions have very little of interest to say....

Ahhh Mamie, the dreaded precedding direct object catches many natives too ;)

It's been quite a while since I taught beginner German- so it may well be true that the concept of direct and indirect object is taught nowadays. I then became a 6th Form specialist- but even then some had to be reminded. Much easier to teach German to French speakers who do know the difference, as it is important in French, but not quite as important as in German.

The other day, on the local expat forum, I used the word 'scorchio' in jest as it was soooo hot- and I got my head bitten off! I like the way Shakespeare invented 2700 words- often from foreign words, like 'zany' for the Italian Giovanni, and (aptly here ;) ) to rant, from the Dutch 'speak foolishly'.

(preceeding ... I must learn to check Grammar and spelling before I post- I type fast and never check - ooops) (and of course 'no particular' in previous post).

Just to be clear the last bit of my last post was not referring to anyone on this thread.
It is just that I feel strongly that people should be allowed to write freely on here without having to look over their shoulders at the grammar and spelling police.
And I also believe that you learn to write by writing and not by learning a load of grammatical constructions that you then string together.
Shakespeare made spelling mistakes and coined hundreds of new words and phrases....

Cross-posted!
As I said upthread, the children are likely to have been taught the grammatical construction. If they haven't used it since they probably will deny all knowledge.
One of the most salutary lessons I learnt was when I took a primary class for two years and the children told me that they had never certain learnt things. When I reminded them of the context in which we had covered it the year before they said, "Oh yes". Before that I would have blamed the preceding direct teacher .
People who object to "scorchio" are just ignoramuses!
I love The Fast Show.

In the spirit of my post I shall not apologise for the involuntary transposition in my previous comments.

Countable nouns; fewer and less. " There were less people than I thought." Should be fewer as people are, in this case individal entities. BUT usage means correct grammar is redundant. However, snobs will tend to demean those with regionsl accents, like my Manchester one, and say things like,"Ee by gum." When I open my mouth, and look down on those who use incorrect grammar, for example saying them instead of those, but if you're a nice person, and have something worthwhile or funny to say, who cares?

My bugbear is people saying " we were Laying down" instead of lying down!

When I started to learn Latin at the age of 11, the grammar came quite easily because we had been strictly drilled in English grammar in primary school. I loved grammar lessons and have since realised that I learnt by recognising patterns in languages. Learning styles vary from one person to another. Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages - ESOL - the emphasis is on communication first and foremost; grammatical constructions come at the higher levels.

So agree- communication, communication and more .... OH had an excellent Grammar School education (Woking Grammar, anyone here?)- and did O'Level French, but could NOT string 2 words together! My first head of Dept when I started teaching in the UK was a O'Level Chief examiner from one of the O'level boards, and could not speak French at all- but he knew every single bit of intricate French grammar, and insisted on teaching the past subjunctive to all, saying it sorted the sheep from the goats! He did have to leave when it was evident that his French communication was zilch, and ended up in a private school.

It's a bit like learning to read and understand music theory, and not being able to play or sing at all.

I grieve here as I teach youngsters on both sides of the border- where from a young age, learning a foreign language is all about writing, vocab without context, spelling- and no communication- with marks given almost exclusively for writing (not communicative writing even).

What I really, really, really want to know is if people on this thread had been alive in Skakespeare's time whether they would have objected to the coining of the word "pedant".
And if not, why not?

Yes exactly that in our bit of France too GJ. With the advice "if you are not sure if it is right, don't say it". Aaaargh.......