Gransnet forums

Pets

Shihtsu

(66 Posts)
farview Thu 11-Oct-18 13:04:44

Have become the owner of a shihtsu (long story) he's about 6yrs old ,well behaved ..but quite a dominant little chap..have had him 12wks..in that time he's shown aggression three times..twice at me when have told him to get off the bed,he does but then really aggressively growls at me and barks fiercely...then yesterday,he got 10yr old granddaughters ball and when she tried to get it off him..he growled and actually tried to bite her but she moved quickly...he's a very muscular dog and a large jaw for a little chap ...so any advice welcome..not feeling happy about it...

Nanabilly Thu 11-Oct-18 13:15:05

A few tricks to put a dominant dog in his place ...
Never let him on the bed.. Not for hygiene reasons just so as he knows it's your place.
Don't let him in a door first or upstairs before you , make him wait.
Do not feed him before you ,feed him after you have eaten.
Do not him sit on back of sofa or anywhere where he is higher than you.
Do not play " fetch type "games as he will dominate as he's proved with the ball.
Let him know who is boss.
Never let him know the growling scares you even if It does . Scoop him up , keeping your face away from him , do not make eye contact as It is challenging to him. Put him outside of in his bed and make him stay there for a while

It would be interesting to know why he's been given up and you ended up with him, is it because of his behaviour ?

farview Thu 11-Oct-18 13:58:46

Yes have been putting all these rules into practice..and he is Not allowed on beds which is why I sternly told him to get down...he's had one owner since birth and he died suddenly..just the two of them,man&dog...the man's xwife asked if I would have the dog...never had this breed before..very dominant!!!
Oh didn't know the rule re play 'fetch'!!

FlexibleFriend Thu 11-Oct-18 17:11:18

The easiest way to get him to do as you say is offer him a treat. You're not rewarding his bad behaviour but rewarding him for doing as you say. So if he grabs your grand daughters ball tell her to offer him a treat rather than grab the ball. Which he probably sees as fair game. You can then teach him to give things up on demand.

sodapop Thu 11-Oct-18 17:29:35

Its early days yet farview, poor little chap has had a big upheaval in his life. I think you need to keep the excitement with children to a minimum and concentrate on letting him know his place in your life and home.
Don't interact with him until he is calm and in the right place, on the floor. Give him a safe place to go to where he can rest and not be bothered by children etc.
It may be that it doesn't work out for you with the dog, your grandchildrens safety is paramount. Good luck with the little chap though.

sassenach512 Thu 11-Oct-18 20:14:49

I think Sodapop is right, it is early days for him to settle in a new home, sometimes it can take months depending on the dog. He has been in a home with just him and his human and, no doubt, being allowed free reign, so it's going to be a work in progress to get him to realise he's not going to have things his own way anymore.
I agree with Nana's points, be firm when he tries to be dominant but it's also important to praise any good behaviour and check the bad straight away, they live in the 'now' it's no good scolding them in hindsight.

I wonder if he hasn't been neutered? an intact dog can be more aggressive and dominant, they calm right down after the 'snip'. Good luck with your little chap, he's probably very confused and no doubt missing his master, I'm quite convinced that they grieve just like we do.

Patsy70 Thu 11-Oct-18 21:54:51

Very good advice here, farview, and as we've adopted a dog from Spain with quite a few issues, can appreciate your difficulties. I've recently read a book, available on Amazon, recommended by a dog trainer: 'The Dog Listener' by Jan Fennell, which is all about being the leader and not allowing the dog to control you. Nanabilly & Flexiblefriend have identified everything, so it's just a matter of you putting it into practise. Good luck - it's not easy!

rizlett Fri 12-Oct-18 09:57:49

Having to be the pack leader and 'showing' your dog you are the boss is now a very outdated way of dog training. This type of training reinforced by Cesar Millan often makes the dog more confused and represses the behaviour (making a dog more dangerous and more likely to snap or bite) rather than teaching the dog to work with you. It was based on very old studies of wolf pack behaviour which is kind of like observing prisoners and then working out from that the best way to interact with the whole human race.

The dominant dog is not the one that comes to the front (as that dog is dispensible in case of approaching danger) but usually its the female dog in the safe protected position at the back who holds the highest place in the pack.

Your dog has already tried to bite - and continuing to 'put the dog in its place' may escalate the behaviour rather than resolve it. It might be worth contacting a couple of positive reinforcement behavioural trainers nearby - look on youtube for positive reinforcement tips.

There's a good book called 'How to train your dog like a pro'. Make sure you concentrate on one small thing to change at the start and keep consistent until your dog understands which behaviour you prefer.

Good training techniques never need to use dominance or negative associations at all or even 'telling' the dog off as thats all counter productive and makes the dog less willing to work with you.

LJP1 Fri 12-Oct-18 10:00:40

Praise five times for every scolding, even for sitting still or waiting quietly, to show you do approve of some of his behaviours.

This works for children too. They tend to remember scolding more easily than being good without appropriate recognition and feel life is unhappy.

rizlett Fri 12-Oct-18 10:03:22

I would also say a simple exercise regarding the ball is to play fetch game but with two balls exactly the same - so you reduce his fixation and attachment to his ball because there are two.

Throw one and have the second one in your hand - when he brings the first one back show him the second one but don't ask him for anything just as soon as he drops the first one throw the second one as his reward. And repeat.

You want a dog that 'lets go' rather than avoiding playing the game altogether which will make a ball (should he happen to see one) even more desirable and him even more likely to hang on to it. In fact have twenty balls - then he'll become totally unattached to them.

lesley4357 Fri 12-Oct-18 10:06:40

Get rid. No place for aggressive dogs around children.

Yorkshiregirl Fri 12-Oct-18 10:10:42

As a Shih tzu owner, and also more in the family I can say that the growling can be a trait of the breed, but it is not always a sign of aggression it can mean they want to play.
Difficult for you as a new owner of this 6 yr old to know and understand his behaviours though, but its a bit like having a child you get to know their cries and growls.
I would be particularly cautious though when your grandchildren are playing, as a lot of dogs would bite when a ball is taken, so perhaps keep the dog in another room, or remove such toys.
Some good advice from other too

Ph1lomena Fri 12-Oct-18 10:10:56

I presume from what you say that you are not getting support from a Rescue? I think you and the dog would really benefit from some professional advice - there are a lot of dog trainers out there these days who will work one to one with you. Make sure you get someone who subscribes to working through reward. It is not a cheap option but you have taken on this dog who will be around for a number of years and I think you will find it would really help your and his quality of life so could be a very worthwhile investment. Good luck.

nannypiano Fri 12-Oct-18 10:34:34

I have re homed a few dogs in the past and they do take a while to settle. But they get there in the end and become loving family members. I have always made it a policy never a leave a child alone with any dog, re homed or not. Animals can nip for a variety of reasons and children can tease and be cruel unintentionally. So always safety first. As regards training, there are usually local training classes available which I have found very helpful. They help with all behavioural problems too.

Urmstongran Fri 12-Oct-18 10:42:33

Get rid. My parents had a Westie. Cute to look at but a growler. Lived with his behaviour for years. Till he bit me badly on my face when I crouched down to fuss him when I was 21y. Whilst I was getting stitches my parents took him to the vet and by the time I was back he had been put down. I was so relieved. Be warned.

Aepgirl Fri 12-Oct-18 10:46:20

I have owned dogs, and now look after dogs when their owners are going away. My main rule is NEVER TRUST ANY DOG where children are concerned. All dogs are pack animals and children can pose a threat to them.

However, persevere with this little chap and I'm sure he'll become a living companion.

mabon1 Fri 12-Oct-18 11:21:59

Send him back. He should not be around children. I have been a dog owner for over 60 years and would never harbour an aggressive dog that age.

Tillybelle Fri 12-Oct-18 11:28:20

rizlett Excellent! Well said! Especially about the dominant dog not being the fierce one but the female in the safe position.
It is taking people too long to learn this, sadly.
With this dog, we do not know what happened to him before. He has a lot to un-learn.
I completely endorse your advice. Also getting a positive reinforcement behavioural trainer as soon as you can is very wise.
Thanks for your comments.

rizlett Fri 12-Oct-18 11:38:00

Thank you Tillybelle - though perhaps I ought to confess I used to work for Guide Dogs so lots of insider knowledge. grin

Judie Fri 12-Oct-18 11:38:38

You need to speak to a dog trainer asap,make sure it is a reliable one,there are sites on Facebook for owners of reactive dogs (I have One)that are very good snd hrlpful

icanhandthemback Fri 12-Oct-18 11:42:38

Growling is not aggressive, it is a signal to warn, just like you and I might raise our voices to let people know we are unhappy and to back off. You are all so much bigger than him and he has to tell you he is unhappy about something, somehow.
Please employ the help of a behaviourist and work with this poor little chap who is probably still struggling with the big upheaval after the loss of his owner. Nobody would expect a small child to understand all the changes in their life, including a different way of communication from his past master, after just 3 three months.
Find a high value treat which he will happily give up a ball for so he learns that is what is expected of him and he will get a reward. Same for getting him off the sofa. It is about changing their thought process...think Pavlov!
I think this article, whilst obviously biased towards the Victoria Stillwell schools explains why we use positive methods rather than negative reinforcement. positively.com/dog-training/find-a-trainer/how-to-choose-a-good-dog-trainer/

barbaralynne Fri 12-Oct-18 11:58:51

We have our 3rd rescue, a tibetan terrier which is the largest cousin of the Shitsu and the breed standards suggest very similar temperament. Ours tries to be dominant but has now accepted our dominance over him. We did all that Nana and Flexible suggested and one more thing - don't let him go to the door when visitors arrive. We have a lead anchored back from the door and he accepts that. We got a couple of dog behaviouralists to advise, one who used the reward system and one who didn't. Neither of them had had any experience with tibetan terriers.
I would suggest getting in contact with the shitsu rescue society in your area and ask for advice. They will be best placed to help. Do hope you can keep him and enjoy him!

Shazmo24 Fri 12-Oct-18 12:08:06

Make an appointment with a Dog Behaviourist & another with a good dog trainer.
The last thing you want it so have to pts because he has actually attacked your GC or worse

123kitty Fri 12-Oct-18 13:18:11

Do you really feel you will be able to trust this dog near you CD. Is it worth the risk?

Iam64 Fri 12-Oct-18 13:32:05

It didn't take long for the discussion to become polarised into those who say never use aversive techniques because it makes things worse, and those who advocate a pack leader type approach.
For what's it worth, the best trainers I work with use largely positive techniques but aren't afraid to make use of (non violent) aversive techniques where necessary.

Don't leave the dog unsupervised around children. Ideally, create a safe space for the dog, it could be a crate or a small room with a Childs gate across it to maintain separation between the dog and children or unknown visitors. Has the dog ever lived with children? You need to make sure your grandchild never tries to remove an item from this dog. The dog found the ball, it assumed huge importance to the dog. The child tried to remove it - help your grandchild understand, its never a good idea to play tug games, or to try to remove anything from a dogs mouth. Meanwhile, it sounds to me as though you need some professional help with this dog. I've pm'd you.