should the children be more important than the relationship

Does your DD know your feelings ? I would not have wanted to leave my child with such a reluctant babysitter. Also I agree with other posters who have disagreed with your views on marriage and men.

Reikilady
Yes I think that you are quite wrong and it would appear that I am not the only one.

It is really important that couples keep their marriage fresh and alive for the benefit of the whole family and it is so wise to do so. It is a commitment for life and to do all that you can to keep those promises made and serving and supporting each other.
In our family DH has always been responsible for the family finances and the family discipline. My job is the smooth running of the home and the care of the children. Neither of us could do our job properly unless we sang from the same music sheet so we always made sure that we kept our mutual respect, friendship and love at the heart of our marriage and family. We always made sure that we spent time together and the lines of communication always open.

Equally there is nothing wrong with giving children time away from parents in the care of loving grandparents or other family members which has the wonderful side benefit of an increase in their self confidence and a wider experience of life.
Our children adored their DGPs and the wider family and are now very self confident professional people. The whole family is responsible for such a good job and another result of that is that we are all incredibly close.

DH and I both love each other to bits and are enjoying our retirement which I pray will be long and happy. We see our DC regularly and the DGC and I am aware how wonderful all that is and never cease to be thankful. It took concentrated effort and work by the whole family at all our relationships family wide.

I think your last post at 21.32 is one of the saddest I have read on GN.
All the business about being happy on your own puts me in mind of a quote from Shakespeare about "the lady doth protest too much".

Your DD is showing great wisdom, probably gained from her life experience.

Our family has always been a team affair with children, parents, granparents, aunties and uncles all contributing what & when they can and receiving help, support and care when the need it. Is that not what families are for?

Well, many families are not like that these days (they were in the old days I know) but people move around the country and overseas for work our of necessity, and grannies and grandads decide to live over on the continent etc.
Anyone who has family support nearby is very lucky indeed.

ethel reikilady you know you are going to love every minute of having your DGD to stay and she will love staying with you!

I've never heard anyone think that way Ethel and I'm a bit shocked tbh. I can't imagine thinking of my DH in that way.

I went to stay at my DB and SiL's house when my nephew was about a year old so they could go to London for a work's Christmas party and loved having the chance to start building a relationship with him. We lived 150 miles apart, so this was how we started getting to know each other. Later his little sister came along and I looked after both of them. Usually I stayed at their house, but they came to me when the family moved house. Over the years their parents were never away for more than 2 nights, but I know they appreciated being able to do something together. The children had a great time with me and were fine even when their parents rang to speak to them.

I'm pretty sure it helped them be confident enough to be happy when sleep overs came along. I appreciated the chance to stay close to my family when we lived so far apart and realise I was lucky there were no GPs on hand to look after the children instead.

I don't know what else to say because I can't get my head around your way of thinking about this.

Ideally children need two happy parents. It is vital that parents put time and energy into looking after their relationship . That doesn't necessarily mean going away without the children but having time as a couple is surely very important. The greatest think a father can do for a child is love its Mum and vice versa.

Time moves on and attitudes change. Our DC didn't stay away from us until they were older. Primarily because we didn't have the spare cash to go away and if we had there was no close family who could care for them. My DM was ill, my DMIL many miles away Later our DC could and did stay with close friends and were excited to have a different experience. Time has moved on. Many parents are able to budget for a night or two away or simply choose to have adult time at home. Our DGC thrive in a different world to the one our DC knew as little ones. They understand 'sleepovers' are fun from a very young age. It doesn't mean their parents don't love them. It's our choice whether or not we agree to care for our DGC or any other child, we shouldn't judge. Our DGC have stayed with us for a night or two from a young age. Never tears at bedtime. We love it, so do they. Grandparents have so much to offer the children and they have so much to offer us. How can it be wrong to support their parents if we can? I know how much we would have appreciated and benefitted from just a little adult space. I believe our children would have benefitted too.

Because of the war I was constantly with my mother at various relatives's homes. It made me very dependent and unsure how to behave with most other adults. I don't know exactly why my lovely maternal GPs took me to London for a few days when I was 7. I enjoyed the trip and I'm sure it helped me to realise that it wasn't 'mummy and me against the world'!

Oh yes, and I was treated as the centre of the universe by my mother with the result that my unfortunate father, when finally demobbed, didn't get a look in. I can say from sad experience that this was not good for anyone.

ethel do you feel that your DSiL is behaving like a toddler and demanding attention from your DD?
Clearly that is not a good way to be and is a separate issue from whether an under-5 can enjoy a short spell away from their parents.
Clearly it depends on the child, and all sorts of details about their lives and the person they will be with, whether a visit is likely to be a good idea for them.
Both my DC, from the age of about 2.5, loved spending a night or two with their granny.

We always put the children first. We believed that they didn't ask to be born and were our responsibility.

Widowed now and still doing it although they are adults with children - tiring.

I think poster is wrong putting most men in a bad light,(poor bleddy men can't win)
I see nothing wrong in parents having a few days without kids.My niece and hubby did it,we had great fun with the little ones,
Different when relationship breaks down and mum finds a new partner,then the child should come first.Often they don't though,

I mentioned on another thread this week on here that sadly, some of those who are estranged from their children are those who put their children first when they were younger. I presume becuase the children become the centre of the universe and carry on believing it and acting accordingly.

When I was widowed and living on my own before remarrying I lived very near DD and saw her and the little ones most afternoons on my way home from school. DGS loved coming to stay overnight with me - and would often ask could he come and sleep that night - as long as it wasn't a school day for me the next day he just put his PJs in a bag and came home with me - a bed was always made for him and a toothbrush waiting - and then gradually his sister chose to do the same thing. Occasionally they would stay because their parents were going out but normally it was the children's wish. Twenty years later they are independent and we still have a wonderful and close relationship and they now invite me out for a meal (just the three of us) and take me home afterwards!

I agree with the one poster who said that the original poster's view was jaundiced. I can't imagine why anyone with those sort of views would consider marriage in the first place, let alone clutter up the situation with a child who becomes so much the focus of their attention that they shove their partner into the background. I don't think it's a matter of putting one party or the other first; it's a balance. I do think couples benefit from having time together if there is support available from grandparents, but only at an age when the child is emotionally capable of enduring the separation. Our grandson was three when DD and her partner asked if they could have a weekend away to recharge their emotional batteries. I agree with cornergran - sometimes you need a bit of adult space. He was fine with us for the couple of nights they were away (and has spent many nights with us since of his own volition) - any longer might have been a problem and if he had shown any sign of being distressed, they would have come back to him straightaway. Some children might not be fine and in the end, it is horses for courses.

John Bowlby was the psychologist who originally argued that 0-5s need a mother and that separation from their mother could cause distress and later on, psychopathy.

His views became very influential and were used by the government just after the war, to get women back into the home so returning men could take their jobs.

Many subsequent studies have discredited Bowlby's theories. It is now recognised that babies are capable of attaching to multiple carers and indeed thrive from these attachments.

So OP your grandchild will love having a weekend with you. Her parents are putting her needs first in allowing her to form multiple attachments.

I wonder if DD always having been put first,still sees it as her right to still be put first.
I see nothing wrong in a couple having 'us' time and quite often look after a child who is not my biological GD,to give mum a single parent some breathing space when needed.
I never left my children we always went as a family,but neither GP where willing or able to help,after 26 years my marriage collapsed due to ex having worked 24/7 and no longer having anything in common.
different situation now DGD lived with myself and new partner after the death of my daughter,new partner arrived first and we all had to shake down and make it work,DGD went to spend a week every so often with my ex and his new partner,and was happy to do so,she is confident and happy to embrace all things new.
I have read that it takes a village to raise a child.
I appreciate every one has different views and circumstances.
The difference in confidence between my GD and my son and daughter is very difference.

What a very warped view of men you have reiki. It's completely at odds with my experience of husband, father, uncles, father in law and brother/brothers in law as well as friends, none of whom have ever behaved in the way you describe.

Ah yes, "Child care and the growth of love" - but the way he researched childhood distress at the lack of maternal care was to raise some baby monkeys without contact with a mother at all, or any other emotional attachment. All they had was a cloth-covered cylinder, which they clung to desperately in need of comfort. No wonder the little mites grew up disturbed.

Flawed research, and nothing to do with contented babies spending a little time with a well-known and loving substitute.

Elegran. Yes, research based on animal studies, which were flawed to say the least. Very interesting though and at least the original studies led to much more research and knowledge of child development.

It sounds to me as if the OP thinks the only role a husband has is to provide his wife with the children that she can then devote her life to, at his expense.
Why bother with a husband at all if it's just the children that women want? After all, men are just 'spoiled brats', 'big toddlers', 'whinging little boys' and 'self-centred grumpy old men'. So all a woman needs to do is get herself pregnant and discard the sperm donor. Simples!
Thankfully though, Ethel, the majority of women don't think as you do. Most of us saw the importance of keeping the marriage fresh, of giving time to our husbands and involving them in bringing up the children. In other words we were a family. And most of us loved to see our children building strong and loving relationships with their GP or other adult family members. It is unhealthy to smother them and keep them tied to your apron strings - how can they learn to be independent?
You talk about children needing to be with their mother all the time. I can't help wondering if the need was more yours than your children's.

Very well said * Indinana* , especially the last sentence.

Give them space and let them fly.

Ethelbags when your baby was born did you tell your DH that he was in second place from now on, or that you both were? The former was perhaps a bit mean unnecessary, () but the latter would have been ok. (although I can't see why it would have been necessary to actually verbalise it)

anno Please not that old chestnut.

But I definitely agree that you shouldn't have to pussyfoot around the dad with a view to "nurturing the relationship". That's a modern concept probably dreamed up by the agony aunts. Just make sure you want the same things before you dive in.