Support for those estranged from family members. Moving on together,

Rhinestone

Sorry in advance for the extremely long post - I don't want to be accused of dripfeeding.

That's a complicated question for me - I don't resent my DM for the estrangement, but I do for other things. When you don't grow up with any meaningful relationship with any of your extended family on both sides, it's hard to truly understand what you have lost, if you see what I mean?

I can only respond through my own experience of estrangement which was simply personality led (not abuse / addiction etc). Both my DM and DGM have / had very strong personalities and with age and experience, I appreciate that there would have been a lot more fireworks (mainly from my DM's end) if they bumped into each other more often. The fact was that instinctively I felt more loyalty to my DM than my DGM irrespective of who said / did what.

From a more practical point of view, it was only as an adult I could really appreciate a relationship with my DGM without family politics. Because, only as an adult I was strong enough to tell my DM that although she didn't get on with DGM, she couldn't dictate whom I could socialise with.

I really wish I could have enjoyed more time with my grandparents and appreciated the time we did have, as it was at a time in my life that I was able to truly enjoy it. As I have a DS of my own now, even having those years of contact helped round me out and helped me learn how to interact with my own relatives and friends because I do think that personality led estrangement can give (it certainly did for me) people tunnel vision when it comes to what extended families really mean.

Rhinestone I truly hope that once your grandchildren reach that age / maturity like I did, that they will seek you out like I sought out my own grandparents. All the best,

Napdodge love the name?

Thanks very much for giving us another viewpoint on estrangement

It is marvellous that you flew to Scotland and developed a relationship with your grandmother it gives us all hope?

My dear husband is 71 so I dont think we have enough time to wait till egd are 18?
He would be 81. However we live in hope.

Rhinestone they say Obama passed law of grandparents visitation rights is that true?
We have no rights in uk

Well dh still annoys me but accep he not been well and mums allow for that and exhaustion from working.

Managed extra acquacise last night so effor to go this morning but think I will.

Have good day all. Sunny here but v windy

Napdoger what a truly lovely story to share with us, thank you so much What a crying shame your DGM passed away after you started to really get to know her, she sounded like a lovely lady. God Bless

Mums70

napdodger your story made me cry.

Do you mind my asking how the estrangement affected your father? Was his relationship with his mother also damaged? It breaks my heart to see my own son so broken by his wife's treatment of me, and not be able to share the joy and pride he has in his little one. Because of this, I have insisted that we accept things as they are for now. I already fear for his marriage, as he is a man of integrity and none if this sits well with him. However, I refuse to contribute in any way to confrontation. I just pray that things will change....before it's too late for me. I am not a saint, but I can truthfully say that I offered my daughter-in-law only kindness, friendship and the hope of love. I have enough self awareness to realise that I am not the sort of person who would sit back and be treated badly, especially in my own home, so this is another reason why I do not push for something which isn't freely given.

Your experiences have obviously helped make you a great mum. I pray that you never feel this pain.x.

kids dont always change their views as they get older, I feel mine have been brain washed into everything their mother and father have told them whilst they were growing up. They dont seem to have minds of their own and their parents have interfered in the relationship between me and my adult grandchildren. My three children do not talk or have anything to do with each other, I find this very sad as I was very close to my late sister. The kids just arent interested on how each other are.

Thank you all for your kind comments.

Rosyglow74

The estrangement really, really upset my dad. After an injury at work he was left disabled (this was during my early teens) and he would call DGM on the quiet, just to break up the isolation as he was on his own a lot during the day. My DM wouldn't outright ban him from talking to her, just be a bit sneery and not put me or my brother on the phone to her.

When she passed away, he openly wept at her funeral and told me that he regretted I never got to meet her "in her prime".

I really respected her: she was your typical no-nonsense Scot. While she came out with some clangers to me, I too live with one foot perpetually in my mouth so I fully empathised.

While my own DM and I have butted heads over the years, especially more recently since I have had DS, my own experience of not having any extended family has meant that I would not choose estrangement as a strategy for anything. I think having different personalities and opinions is part of having a family. It was only in my mid-twenties that I learned how to get along and be friends with people who had different opinions / approaches to me...perhaps because I never had the experience growing up of dealing with aunts / uncles / cousins / grandparents etc.

I know my DM loves my son and would do anything for him (my DF too!) and I think it's only to my son's benefit that he gets to have more people around to love him.

But I want to make it 100% clear that I am not a saint either and that I can be a right pain in the behind, but then so can my DM and so long as we can respect and tolerate each others' differences it'll be okay.

Mumsy

It is a shame that your grandchildren don't talk to each other in addition to you - I think that says a lot more about their relationship with their parents than it does of yours. Funnily enough it was my DGM who told me, "there's nothing like raising children of your own to make you interested in all the other people out their that share your name and history." I hope they prove you wrong in time.

Thank you Napdodgerfor being so honest. I have always wondered if our DGC would be mad at their parents for the estrangement. Surely the oldest would remember us I keep thinking.
Obama did not pass any grandparent rights laws. Certain states passed some laws that say the following:
You have grandparent rights to see the children if the parents divorce or one is
incarcerated or dies. You have to have been a prominent figure in your grandchildren lives. The court will approve visitation if the other spouse won't let you see the children.
Someone I went to school with fought for this in my state being that he is a lawyer. I might ask him what can be done about my situation. i have read many articles about how beneficial it is to be involved in your grandchilds life yet our children are allowed to be abusive to that child by taking them away from us. To cut someone out of your GC's life is clearly abuse .

Thanks napdodger.

When I was growing up, I was taught to accept all family, warts and all. We obviously had our favourites, who we would choose to spend more time with, but no one was cut off. Today's throw away attitude towards anyone perceived to be causing dissension, without explanation or attempts to understand why, is sad. The fact that so many family members are living far away from each other, makes this easier to do.

If I had found myself in this situation with my daughter-in-law back in the day, when my precious other half was still alive, and I was in full health, I probably would have reacted very differently. As I said, I was no saint! I can see now though that that would have caused even more problems, and I may have lost my son. So, whilst this is far from ideal, it is what it is. My son is in constant touch, and that is the best I can hope for...for now.

Thank you for expressing your thoughts and feelings.

Many thanks napdodger for your wonderful posts. I'm so pleased that you got to spend some time with your grandmother. How sad that it was so short but how wonderful all the same.

I was trying to imagine how she must have felt, when you contacted her the first time and how you both must have felt at the first meeting, that first hug. TBH it's made me cry.

I got an email from ES yesterday no doubt prompted by his brother as I said ES had never replied to my email that asked if we could see our GC, in fact in 4 years he'd never responded to me at all, only his father.

If DS had suggested he contact me, he probably wouldn't have anticipated the content of that response. It was the same old anger, bitterness and resentment. A total misrepresentation of what's taken place. Total denial of any wrong doing on his part to the point that although he said once again, that we cannot expect to see our GC because of the way we've treated him and his wife, he still declares that he isn't them.

When I saw he'd replied I immediately became short of breath and my heart was pounding. When I actually read it, it didn't really bother me at all and so I realised just how important it is not to contact him again. It's not what he says, after almost 4 years I've either become used to it, hardened to it or a bit of both. It's just the thought of having contact with him now, in any way shape or form. I'm no longer certain that I could have any contact at all, no matter how brief, even if it were to enable us to see our GC.

When I told you all I'd said goodbye I said that I felt that doing so had set me free and that perhaps it would set him free too. I hope that in time it will, that he'll be able to let go of all the negativity that fuels his rage and deep seated bitterness and resentment.

TBH I had no idea until yesterday, just how extensive it is. Isn't that an awful admission, for a mother to no longer know or recognise her own child.

was trying to imagine how she must have felt, when you contacted her the first time and how you both must have felt at the first meeting, that first hug. TBH it's made me cry.........this is exactly what prompted he to ask Smileless. When my granddaughter is twenty one, I doubt I'll still be around and that's what upset me too.

Me too rosy glow I will be 75 hope I will be. Ur it saddens me to deeply to lose all the years since last meeting at 9 months to now let alone another 10 years?

Smilless can't understand why your Es email you at all if so negative.
What on earth could you have done to him or his wife to unleash all this?

Our ed has never contacted us directly but we received horrid horrid letter via. A solicitor on anniversary of her gran dads death few years ago. She got them to do her dirty work, it was unbelievable and I have to live with the fact a daughter I gave birth to could be so evil. However best thing to try and let it go.n however to use things I told her in confidence that happened before she was even born is stooping to a level of nastiness I had no idea she possessed. How could she sleep at night after that? This is question a dear elderly neibor who knew her well asked and I have to say no idea.

Counsellor has made me start at beginning and it hurts to remember a pub we always met at for years half way kinda thing and as I told counsellor i could never go there again the tears started. Weird how different things trigger it off,

Let's hope it helps me to move on and focus on my dh and. His health problems and those that do love and need us.

So sorry Smileless that your ES sent you such an upsetting e mail, why contact you at all, he must know how upset you would be. There is no excuse for such callousness, whatever the grievances that e mail is not in any way acceptable. I used to get like that, at times I thought I was sure to have a heart attack, I wasn't because my heart thank goodness is sound, it was a kind of terror and panic. It's so hard to accept a child you have loved can treat anyone like that, never mind their own mother.That is why I think for me it would be too late even if my daughter apologised in the future because I feel ashamed at her behaviour and the fact that she knew I was vulnerable grieving for my husband and her way of dealing with it was to push me to the edge. Like Celebregran you have a lovely husband and other family and friends. Even if as mothers we did something wrong, can't think what, surely just talking about it would sort it out in five minutes, self blame is not in any way appropriate. To all the ones like me on their own, know that there are lots like us and we will get through this and be stronger. To everyone of us ? and ? Keep ?X

Yes Luckylegs we will get through this, there's that saying isn't there that what doesn't break you makes you stronger and it's so true. You and Celeb are both right in what you say. Why bother to respond at all when all you have to say is cruel and vindictive.

You're very brave Celeb, going for counselling. I hope it goes well for you and you benefit from it but I can't help but worry about you dear friend. I know we are all hurting and I don't want you or any of us to hurt any more than we absolutely have too. Take care, take care of yourself and your dear hubby.

Rosyit's just too painful to think that we may never know our GC but ours will know one day that we loved them and thought about them. That's why I'm doing a memory box for them; at least I know that one day when I'm no longer here, they'll be able to look through its contents and perhaps it will help them to know that they were loved by the GP's they never knew.

I did respond to ES's email last night. I thanked him for sending it because in so doing, he confirmed that I was right to say goodbye.

Oh Smilelss my heart aches for you why does it have to be this way?

I know it's probably ridiculously stupid idea but would he talk to you and your dh do you think if you asked him to before you move, not says no don't move of course, but is it worth a try? hold your hand up and say if I got it wrong and upset you or or wife I a. Deeply sorry what else can you say?

I tried all that though in my case I really think my ed just didn't want us anymore end of as we have no idea what we got so wrong.

It is mistake to dwell on it all. Thi cognitive behavioural therapy is supposed to help retrain my thinking to move on Smilless so shouldn't hurt me. Thanks so much for caring. Xx

Sorry his name is Coleman not Cokeman.

Nap dodger, I am so glad you got that special time with your grandmother. Whatever your mothers relationship with her mother it was wrong to impose her views on you, but it is all about control, we are all different and no saints, but not bad either and should accept warts and all our family. Thankfully you got a chance to find that out.
I wrote down after one tirade, the things wrong with me that caused such bitterness, they amounted to, I got on her nerves, I was so apologetic, I made snide remarks, but when asked what, she couldn't think of one, then told it was a personality clash and she preferred her friends. For that I was ostracised, I agree I did apologise for what I didn't know what, because I wanted things to be on track and part of the family and see my gd, but she wanted no contact despite it all. To everyone whose child has estranged themselves look at the reasons they give when they have sounded off, I bet there isn't anything there that justifies it, for some reason they just want the relationship to finish. You can't fight it. I worry Celebregran that this counselling you are having doesn't make you rake everything over and you question all you did or said that might have led to the estrangement. If things were wrong, she should have talked to you, looked at what you and her dad did every day showing you loved her, unless she has been controlled by her husband and brainwashed, if that is the case again there is nothing on earth you can do as she will believe everything he wants her to. As parents we want to make everything right and our children to be happy, I had to just accept me being in her life didn't make her happy and after a long painful journey make the break. It will never stop hurting, but I have made a different life and at times almost forget about it for a while.
Rosy, I feel your pain, your son is in a very difficult position,eventually he will resent his wife and things will change. How can he ever respect and love her?

I so feel for you smileless with the negative emails! I get them too, some are so vile with abuse it would make your hair curl. I used to respond but I dont bother now as it just drags me deeper into the conflict. My younger daughters last email to me was on the anniversary of her fathers death, she just as well as stuck a knife in my back! My older daughter well she never replied to my last email obviously the questions I asked her she couldn't or wouldnt answer! Both girls had their late father on this pedestal and although dead he is still on it! Its been said that all children have a favoured parent I wasnt it where my daughters are concerned.

I try and move on and then when the emails come it sets me back, younger daughter tells me never to contact her again then every so often she will email abuse at me. Its like being on a never ending roller coaster ride!

Rosy I can't believe your d.i.l can be so cruel to you and then just go on with her day to day life with your DS, knowing how much it's hurting him too [even though I'm in the same boat as you]

Napdoger Thank you again on finishing your story, your poor dad, for him

Smileless so sorry you got that rotten e-mail from your Son, good reply though, well done there

Celebgran I find this page is my therapy. I think to go to someone that doesn't have any knowledge of estrangement, even though they are a therapist, I just feel they wouldn't understand or give the advise, as we do on here.

Luckylegs Mumsy Rhinestone for you too

Must dash, as it's my niceD birthday today, so we are going out for a nice lunch by the seafront

SmilelessI am so angry for you and for all of us to be treated that way with unkind words. Clearly it is your ES who needs some counseling. In our case we get NO communication, nasty or otherwise. Would it be easier to have received none?
IMO I think your moving is causing him some anxiety and conflicted feelings. I'm not a psychologist but it seems like his lashing out to you is justifying his estrangement to himself. Does that make sense?If he keeps telling you how awful you have been over and over , he can believe his estrangement is the right thing to do.
I guess the estranged children feel powerless for whatever reason and the only way they can control us is to keep the GC from us.
I totally get what you are saying about knowing your own child. I sometimes wonder how my wonderful son and our great relationship got to this point without any argument myself. Too bad our EC won't meet us halfway to resolved their issues.

My thanks to you all Celeb, Yogagirl, Rhinestone, Mumsy, Luckylegs and Rosy for your kindness and support.

It would make no difference at all Celeb. I have apologised for what I did, giving back their wedding photo's as for the other things I've been accused of, they are either lies or things that I have no intention of apologising for. One example, they fell out with the son and his wife, of one of our dearest friends. We refused to get drawn into it, we've known the young man in question since he was 5 years old. This is regarded by our ES as an example of our betrayal.

I will not and cannot apologise for things I haven't done or said because that would be a lie. We, like all of you believed we'd built our relationship on a foundation of impregnable rock; that relationship has fallen apart. How long would it survive if we tried to resurrect it and rebuild it on quicksand, on a tissue of lies?

I was going to say it would have been easier not to have heard from him again Rhinestone but TBH it has helped. His nastiness really was confirmation that I'd done the right thing in saying goodbye. What you've said about him lashing out to justify this estrangement is spot on. Its what he's been doing for the last 4 years and until he accepts responsibility he'll continue to do so which is why I have to let him go and walk away. I just cannot deal with his venom any longer.

Like you Yogagirl this page is therapy to me too. Enjoy your lunch with your ND and wish her a happy birthday.

My dearest friend is coming to stay tomorrow for a whole week. We'll be going to our holiday home on Sunday for a few days, leaving Mr. S. in peace but he'll be there Sunday evening, well we need him to do the BBQ.

Thanks once again to you all dear friends.

I'm so pleased this thread is back on tract.

There are such heart rending stories on here and yet I never ceased to be amazed how resilient posters are and how they are coping with the ongoing heartbreak.
I know that there but for the grace of God go I.

Although I describe myself as 'happily estranged' from my DS's partner, it is still a very difficult situation because it places him right in the middle and has caused him a lot of stress. She has actually done herself a great disservice by telling awful lies about us to him and following them up with a really insulting email which she copied to DS. Bad move. Reading about people on this thread getting insulting emails from their children imakes me shudder. Once something is put in writing it can never be retracted.
A close friend of mine fell out with her stepson because she sent a lengthy email to him and his wife saying that she didn't agree with how they spent their money,that they should visit more often, that they hadn't encouraged their son to go into further education and oh, a host of other criticisms (I was horrified when she told me). She
had a one line reply ... Be careful what you say before you press the SEND button.. She and her husband never heard from them again and when my friends husband died last year his son didn't attended the funeral.

Even if the email that Smileless received from her estranged son wasn't plesant, it means he's still bothered or he would have ignored her. I recall that he walked past her house not long ago with the DGS, so there's still something going on there. Hopefully when she and her DH have moved, he will 'miss' having his parents being in close proximity. It's a bit like kids who are used to a toy and ignore it but if it's removed and out of sight, they want it. I know I'm pontificating a bit here - sorry!

You are all so brave, it's really quite humbling.

Pontificate as much as you like Fairydoll. I can understand your friends' step son and wife being angered by her email, anyone would be but to never contact them again!! To not attend his father's funeral!!

What on earth is wrong with these adult children that enables them to throw away their parents with such ease.

Your posts are always welcome, often thought provoking and always supportive. Thank you.

My older daughter wouldnt attend her grandmothers funeral ( my mother) she didnt even buy flowers. Thinking back she didnt even buy flowers when her aunt died ( my younger sister)

I never really got on with my mum as she was very cold, I do think that had a lot to do with her upbringing as she was brought up by her grandparents, no idea why as her parents were alive at the time. I vowed I would be different and I was towards my kids. Although the relationship was difficult with my mum I would still visit or phone her and take her out.

I live in a small community and theres people here like me who feel they have been dumped here and left by their kids! Then I see some kids who regularly visit their parents and take them out and that hurts knowing my kids and adult grandkids dont give a damn!!!

What on earth is wrong with these adult children that enables them to throw away their parents with such ease.

Theirs a thread about lending money to adult children which tells me a lot about the way some people look on life.

I always remember that theirs 2 sides to every story.