Continued support and fun aspects too of rebuilding lives after estrangement can't believe 4 years and we still here to offer help, friendship and support.TWO

Omg meant unpacking last bits wish could edit these posts!??

Thank you Starlady and Luckylegsfor your input. Because I disagreed about " the government listening to our phone calls" and because I suggested my son may be stuck in his life at 39 is no reason to call me a name and threaten to estrange me. He has no real job and lives from month to month owing rent money and then complains about his landlord wanting it. He is being taken to court once again for this.
I'm at the point where I realize he is not stable with his ongoing paranoid views of the world. At my mother's dinner the other night he got into a disagreement with his sister because he was trying to tell her how to parent. He talks to everyone telling me and mom that he is on a higher level than anyone and so much more enlightened. He has become my x husband, angry, superior, righteous and loud with his rants. He refuses to work for any " corporate" anything. Yet the last few jobs he had had he was let go for his big mouth. I am sickened beyond belief. He was such a joy to raise but ever since college he has changed.
We went by my ESS's house and saw a car parked there but nothing else.

For those of you who wondered about reconciliation, here's what I have learned. Even though my son took full responsibility for the estrangement, now that he is mad again, he is using it as a tool to threaten me.
So is this what we all want? Do we want to walk on eggshells forever? Do we have to constantly worry about the words that come out of our mouths? Someone suggested counseling and I agree that is what needs to happen upon reconciliation. That's all I can come up with now. I'm just mentally tired from the thoughts in my brain.
I think we need to find people like *Smileless's *neighbors that consider themselves like family and who WANT to be with us. I'm tired of the fight frankly.

Celeb,did it take long to unpack your lady bits.??????

LL would you really have done things differently? Could you have spent years of your life trying to be someone else? Changing from the person that gave birth to your ED, that did what you believed to be right in every aspect of her life because when she got to a certain age you, the person that you were, are and always will be didn't 'fit' anymore?

I'm sure we can all look back and find things that with the benefit, or curse of hindsight, we wish we hadn't done but do any of those things either as single events or even in there totality justify our AC's children's estrangement of us? Their total abandonment?

When they were children, we their parents wouldn't give them something or allow them to do something that we believed was wrong, not in their best interests so why should we change now?

Perhaps this is what some of them want. They hope that we spend hour upon hour dissecting their upbringing so we can then berate ourselves for 'letting them down', for not being 'good enough parents'.

We did that too in the beginning; poor Mr. S. still does sometimes and it makes mewhen he recalls some event and wonders of that's the reason why. He's a good man, a kind, loving, warm, affectionate and generous man and showed all of those qualities to his children. Our DS still sees his qualities so it isn't his fault that our ES has rewritten history.

I don't do it anymore and haven't done so for a long time because I know that this isn't my fault, I know I was and am a good mother, I know that I've never said or done anything to make my own son hate me.

I'm so sorry Rhinestone. I remember when you posted and said your ES had been in touch and how you were going 'keep your feet on the ground' because as much as you longed to reconcile you were I think afraid that it would go wrong or wouldn't be as wonderful as it's been in your dreams.

I have a one word answer for all of your questions; NO. Estrangement is the weapon they've used already. They had no right to use it then and they have absolutely no right to appear as if they want to make things right again and let us know that their ability so sink so low, to be so cruel is still an option, because if we do, or say or even look at them the 'wrong' way they'll estrange themselves from us again.

Counselling can help I'm sure but first our EAC have to take on board those 3 'R's I posted a few days ago: Remorse, Repentance and Restitution. IMO unless and until they do there's no way forward and I for one would never attempt contact with our ES without them, all 3 of them and even then well, 'never say never' but I honestly don't know what I'd do.

Take care dear friends xx

I hope your bit are happy, being unpacked. There should be a ban on packed bits.

Ha ha I do keep you amused don't I with my typos!

Very successful afternoon pedicure and eyebrow shape went very well,

My turn tomorrow to have bit pampering having my cut and colour done,

Was pleased coped ok as eyebrow shape takes bit work really,
Having to stand, Was nice have catch up with old friend at same time,
Will now read the posts! X

Rhinestone if nothing else we deserve respect from our children if we have spent best part of our lives raising them so I would never accept rudeness in any way from either of mine ever,

I raised them to be polite and respectful always to everyone and drilled into them that however clever they were and theymwere both especially my son extremely high achievers and intelligent I said how you treat people is far more important and to be kind and respectful is always always the right way with everyone,

Sadly our daughter wasnt very respectful towards me or her dad.

I had a viscous row with my son extremely rare new year 2016 about 18 months ago and I said to him then don't threaten me if you want to estrangemgo ahead just because his sister has treated us so dreadfully and we are vulnerable because of it I will not be treated rubbish by anyone else,EVER

vicious in case typo police about!

Smileless, you are of course right. Your husband sounds such a lovely man who sometimes seems to question the why's and wherefores. This recent episode of mine, put me right back into guilt mode, could I have done things differently, but you are right, you can't be someone your not, why should we? We are the ones who did our best, it is so against nature to turn on your own, so sometimes I just feel I must have been wrong for her to do this , at a time when I needed her most, she must know how it hurts me, my family were everything, she must know I get lonely, my husband, best friend dying and half my family out of my life as if I had the plague. I think if, as you did, finally cut off, as I thought I had, find a different life. I could never trust her again, how can you trust anyone who purposely hurts anyone, but to do your own mother is incomprehensible to me.

Ha ha celeb I bet your 'lady bits' are glad to be back home - right where they belong

Rhinestone, it sounds as if ds is a very angry person, right now, or perhaps, not mentally well. I can see how it must hurt you to see him go downhill like this.

I admit, if my life were going sour, I wouldn't want/need my mum pointing it out to me. But IF that's how he feels, he's being hypocritical when he turns around and tries to tell your dd how to run her life or raise her kids or whatever. It must be very frustrating for you to deal with him and your criticisms were almost bound to come out at some point, imo.

I hope the threat of another estrangement was just said in the heat of the moment. But perhaps a little distance would be good for all of you for a while? I know you love him, of course, but t's obviously not that pleasant to be around him these days. I don't mean a total co, but less contact? Just a thought.

Celeb, I guess ds didn't respond to that awful row with an estrangement since I know you still have a relationship with him now.. I'm sorry the row happened, but glad he doesn't want to go nc.

Lucky, your last post brought tears to my eyes.

Oh no starlady my dear son and I have totally different relationship it's built on solid ground, I can see the love in his eyes and feel it in his hugs it makes being a mum worthwhile.
The row was v unusual and only bad one have ever had with him in 39 years.

Whoops got get dressed get dh to work

Lucklegs?You are a lovely lady please don't forget that x

Good post again Smileless

Thanks for your input Rhinestone on being reunited. Sorry to hear it's not a bed of roses for you, here's a different kind .
If I was ever reunited with my once beloved D, and she through the estrangement card at me again, I would simply say "Off you go then" because the pain over this 4.5yrs will never go away, [even when reunited] The damage is done and cannot be repaired, so for her to repeat it wouldn't hurt as it did and I would know that if she wanted no-contact there is nothing I could do or say to stop her, so second time around I would do nothing, but step back. But, having said that, I am sure if we were reunited she would never do it again, she would be very remorseful, as it was her nasty H & his mother that pushed & brainwashed her to do it, without them she wouldn't have done, so the reconciliation would only come about when she is no longer with them.

Luckylegs I agree with you re the trust, I too would never trust my now estD again, you could never believe what they said to you! If my estD, reunited, said to me " I love you mum" I would reply "no you don't,[you don't do what you did, to someone you love, brainwashed or not]" I'm on my own too LL and yes it's hard to cheer you a little.

Celebgran don't worry I won't mention your 'lady bits'

Anyone has only to read all these posts over the years to deduce that we are all good people and good kind Mothers, some lucky enough to have kind husband that are good, kind Fathers too.

Agree yogagirl the trust is gone forever

I hate what my family has become because of her.

We can't have normal parties it still hurts too much.

Will we even tell her about my ds getting married,
I doubt it likewise the recent bereavement she clearly is not interested so why upset ourselves further,

Changing tack my back is bloody awful today morphine and codeine not touched it,
I will have to stick heatpad on it off to hairdressers at her home at 11 and will see her adorable baby, x

Thank you all for your responses. I feel safe here telling my ongoing saga.
StarladyI think you are saying what I have been thinking but not wanting to deal with.... that there is a mental issue with my son. The constant anger and paranoia about the world scares me. He is going on forty years old and lives in poverty because he won't work any job. He has made himself policeman of the world telling all how to live and what they are doing right. He spends his days watching videos online about aliens and conspiracies. He doesn't want to be conventional and considers himself superior. It's almost like he has parts of my mother's bipolar disease in him.
I blame myself for the divorce so long ago. But the way his father was to him is how he has become to everyone else now. I had told him that he was sabbotaging himself by not working as he was complaining about no money. Then he said I need to stop seeing my DD's children and that it was not my responsibility to make up to them for what they are not getting from their mom, his sister. Where does one come up with fairy tales like that?I think I have become hardened because if he wants to cut us off again so be it.

I meant my son tells all what they are NOT doing right.

Yogagirl thanks for the roses. CelebgranI'm glad your relationship with your son is solid but I wish you weren't in so much pain. SmilelessYes my fears came true. The fear of threatened or real estrangement happened. He must have felt guilty after because he texted my DH. Im glad for you that you made the right decision to move. You sound happier. And yes we shouldn't give in to children like when they were young but it's hard because they have complete control over our GC.
LuckylegsWe do blame ourselves don't we?
If we have no explanation for why we were CO our minds make up stories to fill in the question marks.

I'm so sorry, Rhinestone. (((Hugs)))

Yes, celeb, your relationship with ds sounds really good and able to withstand a row now and then.

It's no good, I was going to resist temptation honestly but I can't help it so ......everything sorted with your lady bits now C?.

Your post made me a littlebecause the way you talk about your relationship with your DS is how my relationship with our ES used to be. I remember "see(ing) the love in his eyes and feel(ing) it in his hugs". The love I have for him and believed he had for me made me feel worthwhile not just as a mum but as a human being.

It's me and DS who've always bickered and argued and yet here we are with the only change in our relationship being that we're even closer; he's even closer to his dad too.

Yes Rhinestone the temptation is to allow our minds to make up stories to fill in the gaps and IMO it's so important to acknowledge that they are stories, works of fiction, just like the stories our AC make up to convince themselves and others that they've done the right thing.

Had a nice walk into town and treated myself to some new sandals. I know, haven't I got enough pairs of shoes, boots and sandals? Probably, oh OK then definitely but I just couldn't resist the temptation. Oh dear, that's the second time I've given in today.

Smilelss naughty girl for giving into temptation, will I ever live that typo down??.

Have been sitting In Garden after dear hairdresser sorted my hair am done cuddles with her baby 11 weeks now bless him.

I feel awful, so much damn pain and feel sick too so not looking like will be able to make it out tonight ?

Idiot really I did a shop after dropping dh off work then when got in from hairdresser went upstairs to look decided do bit ironing then climbed on Chair to find hug bag summer tops well that helped my back of course.

Coming up to difficult week dear xxxxxxx will be 9 on Election Day.
I know yogagirl you just gone through difficult birthdays

However it gets harder rather than easier if find but I will survive,

Just want date for my op!

Smilelss wanted to say bought a shop bag at Iceland you need one it says life is short buy the ? shoes love it!
We are both bit that way inclined.

TOMORROW Tor godmother and husband visiting been friends for over 40 years, did her treatments yesterday but we just aren't close now.?

Sorry smilless ?That it reminded you of es it's weird it's other way round for us. I always knew my daughter was capable of nastiness but never ever believed she could be so cruel but that is her problem not ours but boy has it almost ruined our lives, whereas my son always been one I looked to as he did t try stress or upset me. Not that we heard from him still don't on daily basis like our estranged daughter.