Support for Grans cut-out of AC&GC lives

Now why are you still up Celeb?. I think you know what's keeping me awake but why aren't you in the land of nod?

Nina that posts shows even more how one sided you are. You insist it is all one sided, I haven't said that at all. I've said there can be faults on both sides. You are the one with the closed mind. If you are so precious that you can't even stand the thought that it just could be the GPs that are at fault, or that someone could dare to mention that then you do have a problem.

Thanks Celeb, even in the midst of your own problems you are still aware there can be faults on both sides.

I've got GC off to school, just having a cuppa before I go off to do some work. I am retired but do a bit of consultancy work, keeps my brain active.

Hope you health is improving.

flump nina's view on estrangement in no more one sided than your own. We can only talk of our own personal experiences and nina is also drawing on her extensive research on the issue of estrangement. Smileless that is really unfair. I have repeatedly said there can be faults on both sides, how is that one sided? Nina's view is that it is always the ACs fault, that is one sided.

Flump, I don't have the time. I am happy with my years of research and the evidence I have concluded to the point where I don't feel I need to defend or explain it. If you have issues with it, it's exactly that. Your issue. I'm not going to be drawn into a debate over it.

Smilesless, got your message. Of course I will let you know.

That's OK Celeb, I don't have a grievance with Flump or anyone. I'm just not willing to be challenged or get into yet another debate. xxx

nina research that shows that it is never the GPs fault? I think that is statistically unlikely.

I'm not taking the bait Flump. To be honest, I find constantly returning to the same old debate doesn't help anyone to heal or move on. That's why I don't spend much time online on these kinds of threads. My life is happy and I am looking forwards.
It sounds as though you feel the need to go on the defensive and that's fine. I'm not being drawn in.

I am an estranged P GP.
Initially I was so distressed and bereft that I could only see it through my own blinkered eyes, nothing I had ever done or said could justify CO or limited contact,.
Of course I can reflect now and accept that in my situation I could have and should have modified my thinking and behaviours to see both sides and not just my own.
AC cutting off their parents and keeping their children away from their grandparents, in my opinion, is not always 100% the fault of the AC, there are often several contributory factors in the mix.
For this I agree with Flump's comment that it is statistically unlikely to never be the GPs fault.

But this is a support thread. Other threads discuss the issues involved in why it may have happened, and where faults might be found.

That's great Joannab. I've gone off to realign my chakras and enjoy the rest of my life. Unless there are serious abuse issues, no family member deserves being cut off.
That's my firm conclusion and no amount of debate will change my opinion.

That's my belief too nina. Abuse issues are of course justifiable reasons for cutting out P's and GP's but when there has been no abuse it's a very cruel act.

Yes flump you're right, you have posted that there can be fault on both sides so that was unfair of me.

joannab you say that you "can reflect now and accept that in (your) situation (you) could have and should have modified (your) behaviours to see both sides and not just (your) own.

I assume then that you have been told why you've been CO; Mr. S. and I like many others still don't know why we're being treated in this way.

Of course you don't have to answer this but I was wondering if you feel that you deserve to be CO? You say you're estranged so I'm assuming this is more than limited contact.

nina1959 I agree, no family members deserve to be cut off.

I am surprised no one has tried asking their local authority for help under Safeguarding guidelines.

Also, I think sometimes within our well behaved society, where being reasonable at work, in the social sphere, in education and with your children, the wider family is the last place where people can bully and misbehave. And not be challeged by anyone.

Gosh, there’s a lot on here just since yesterday.
It’s my belief too that there are never justifiable reasons for cutting off a family member or members, but let’s just establish that I am not talking about abuse here, that’s a whole different ball game. Quite right Sparkly, the wider family must be the last institution left where bullying is acceptable, and sadly even encouraged sometimes.
Essentially I agree with Nina, who has after all researched this issue. I find it interesting that whilst just about everyone has at least heard about, and often experienced, AC completely cutting off their parents, and therefore often their children’s grandparents, I haven’t heard of any cases of complete cut off of AC and grandchildren by their parents, so to me it seems to be a very one sided phenomenon. Does anyone know any different? I would be interested to know as it would dimension to the discussion.

I’m pleased to see that you have revised your opinion of my post of yesterday Starlady, I was not mocking, I was talking about unrealistic expectations, expecting grandparents to jump through hoops, and walk on eggshells just as Smileless quite rightly interpreted. Personally I laid down very few boundaries, rules, call them what you will, when my children were with their grandparents. One rule I did have was very few or no sweets, in order to protect the children’s teeth. My FiL argued with me over this and didn’t respect my point of view, but it never even crossed my mind that we should cut him/ them off. They were my husband’s parents for goodness sake. I adapted, allowed him to give them a few sweets sometimes when we saw him.

Flump, it seems you also adapted by taking your children to visit their grandmother, despite her being a difficult woman (you don’t say how she was difficult) and as you rightly say, they were able to make up their own minds about her later. What you didn’t do was cut her off with no explanation, which is what many grandparents on this thread face.
I hope your DiL recovers soon, in looking after your grandchildren during this difficult time, you are giving your grandchildren a positive experience of how families ‘muck in’ and help one another. That’s what families are about, not cutting each other off, in my very humble opinion.

Smileless, yesterday we went to see Kinky Boots in London. We really enjoyed it and can recommend. We didn’t bother with getting dinner afterwards, as I suffered a rather nasty bout of food poisoning over the weekend, I’m blaming the smoked salmon as no one else in our party ate it, and they all remained well

Oh didn’t mean to post the above, I’m certainly not angry that I was the only one to get food poisoning, I was looking for a sad face! Anyway, I was recovered enough to go yesterday, but still had very little appetite (still haven’t actually) so it wasn’t worth eating out, we came home and just had a bowl of soup, and watched tv in the warm, snuggly house. How do you spell snuggly? Does it have an e after the l? Sorry if it’s wrong. It’s one of my grandchildren’s favourite words, they like to be snuggly under a hand made quilt my neighbour made for me, and we watch a bit of Pepper Pig, or Stickman, or something, all snuggly together.

123FlumpYou mentioned that you didn’t think CO was abusive to the GC. We sat for our grandson for three years weekly in addition to seeing him at holidays and going to his special events. He loved us. You really don’t think when we were CO that it was abysive to take living and caring GC away from him and especially since my DH is the only grandfather?
What would you call it then?

I meant loving not living GP

I agree with you Rhinestone, to cut off grandparents that children have had a loving relationship with all their little lives is definitely abuse, it’s called emotional abuse. It’s recognised in schools, and marriages, why not with parents who deny their children their beloved grandparents? When my three year old grandson asked his mother if his grandad was dead, does that not show emotional suffering? When his three year old twin sister, upon being reunited with us, wrapped her little arms around my neck, every single time she was leaving us, and say ‘I miss you Nana.’ Does that not show how much she was afraid of me disappearing again, like when we had very, very limited contact. No one can legitimately say that cut off is not emotional abuse.

I’ll come back later, got a few things to do.

I agree with Ninabut the main issue is not blame but not having communication and understanding and coping skills. When you cope with something you deal with it straight on, not CO with silence and absence.
IMO except in cases where there is physical, mental or sexual abusive you don’t CO the grandparents. Sometimes people will CO if they have something to hide like use of drugs etc. But I cannot think of one thing that can’t be fixed by understanding one another and communicating.
Smileless My ES said the same thing that he had the issues. I’m thinking that the personal issues your ES is talking about is his wife especially since he had problems with her in the past. Maybe he wants to leave her but doesn’t want to leave the children.
I know what you are saying though. Sometimes we just can’t believe these EC came from us when we are treated like that. My ES was the easiest to bring up always so happy and sweet. And now he is mean and angry all the time in addition to his stepbrother who is the same.

MaddyoneYour little GD saying that makes me tear up.
Everyone has said how it’s much easier to let the anger go, grieve and move on with your life. Then how come I’m angrier now than three years ago? This isn’t like a death. The person exists. I see pictures. They live thirty minutes from me.

My book will be out soon and it covers all the topics about estrangement, being cut off, rejected and the effects it has on the vilified person. It's based on my own true life experiences and hopefully it's going to bring a lot of light to what's currently very much a hidden form of chronic abuse.

Estrangement can be mostly divided into two categories. One kind is where there is no choice, certain people must remove themselves from any connection to their family because they are present a risk or threat to either them directly or to others. This kind of cutting off is completely understandable and in no way wrong. Some families are clearly dangerous towards each other, we know this.

But the other kind of estrangement where a family member isn't liked, accepted or tolerated is about control, bullying and punishment. In this case, it's an insidious, snakelike, invisible abuse that causes lethal harm to the targeted victim. This is what my book is about.
I come from a background where I was rejected by my mother and 50 years later I still am. My childhood was violent and highly dysfunctional. My mother had 5 more children but singled me out as the scapegoat. Eventually her behaviour meant my entire family also rejected me and then my own children also learned the same pattern of behaviour so estrangement can be an intergenerational learned pattern of behaviour where family members team up as a pack.
Thankfully today, psychology is now starting to recognise this hidden pattern of behaviour that goes on in families. It's called scapegoating and it's right across the board. Years ago domestic violence was hidden, now we know far more about it's impact. I hope scapegoating and estrangement is going to be the next big discovery.

I have survived and managed to deal with the obvious pain and hurt but I know many people still suffer terribly. It's one reason why mental health is in such dire straits.

The sad thing for the cut off person is that they live in constant hope that their family will change. I can tell you 50 years later, most scapegoating families will not change because they don't think they are wrong. Blaming someone else means there is no motivation to change. The victim also believes that they are bad and have caused the abuse, they may even think they deserve it. They do not. Cutting an innocent family member off is act of passive anger and aggression. It's a way of not dealing with an estrangers own flaws and failings. Why should they change if they can simply blame another person?

Many victims live in terrible fear that they won't survive their hurtful, cruel families. I am living proof that you can. Not only can you survive but once you see that it was never about you, you will grow a new life and a new way of thinking that supports you in ways you never thought possible. You deserve your own self love, self compassion and self respect and once you wake up to how dysfunctional and cruel your family have been while using you as an excuse for their own poor behaviour, you will fly. You won't want them back. Your life will blossom and you will be much happier and kinder towards yourself.

One thing, which I have mentioned a few times, the best way out of estrangement is to focus forwards and try not to keep going back to the topic. Changing our thought patterns and growing a new perspective won't happen if we are constantly thinking about being cut off. I know it's very hard and I have every sympathy for those who are recent to estrangement. But my best advice is to use it as an opportunity to start growing a new life. Even if your family come back, in my experience, their behaviour won't have changed. So they might return but still treat you as though you were a dog tied up in a corner and then get upset when you object. Then because you object they see you as having 'failed the test' and they cut you off again because 'you're a pain in the arse and impossible' You will be hurt all over again. And you'll never win. But then it's not about winning because there are no winners, only losers. The grandchildren who are denied the chance to know their own gene pool will grow up angry when they realise how their lives have been mapped out for them. There's nothing you can do about this either. Best to look ahead and replant your dreams in kinder and less arrogant pastures. Let them reap their own harvest. You go and grown sunflowers somewhere else and enjoy the view. You're not responsible for decisions made by others and you shouldn't live your life believing you're to blame for it all because that's what they want you to think. It's excuses their behaviour.

Lastly, be wary of the 'let's kiss and make up' ploy. After so many years of being cut off and left out of everything, we change. No matter how hard we would like to mend fences, our battered sense of trust transforms into well earned wisdom. There is no way back. The relationship will not be the same again. Rosy coloured spectacles may help for a while but constant pain and betrayal makes you a very different person. Eventually you still love the person but you'll never rely on or trust them again. This isn't bad. It keeps you safe and it allows you to focus on growing healthier, more loving relationships elsewhere.
I have a rule. I wouldn't see a family member on the street or starving. But I don't have to like them.

joannab that is very sad but you are brave to acknowledge your share of what went wrong. Is there any chance of building bridges now? My husband and his mother were back in contact before she died but I was the go between, I think it needs someone to take on that role. I hope it can work out for you.
MissAdventure part of support is understanding what went wrong and why, if we can't do that how can we move forward?
Thank you smileless, I always try to be fair and look at both sides of an argument, if you believe in the stars me being Libra might explain that. I think it is unfair to cut someone off without telling them why, we should all have a chance to put things right If, and I do mean if, we have done something to upset someone else.
Oh Maddyone it is so hard to explain why she was difficult, on first meeting her she was lovely and caring but gradually you realised that anything you said would be stored away and used against you.
She would chat to me about my job, she then decided I was having an affair with my boss. She backed this up by giving details about him that she had asked me for. She really tried to cause problems in my marriage with this. Other things? Well one of my children was a poor eater and after an illness became seriously underweight. It was a terrible worry and the advice we were given was 1. make no fuss, 2. let them eat anything, the doctors word were "Let X eat chocolate for breakfast if they want it, when we get the weight sorted out we can worry about the teeth." MIL knew this but she knew better, of course, so she would make a fuss about food, would tell X that chocolate was bad for them. Every time we visited eating problems would increase and weight would decrease. However much we said she wouldn't co-operate so eventually we said that it was a shame but we couldn't visit any more. She was furious, she was doing her best, meant well etc. That was all OK but a child was on the point of being admitted to hospital for tube feeding. All these things would be presented as her doing her best and looking out for DH and for the children. Maybe they were, maybe she really couldn't accept that the Dr and parents did know as much as her.
She also loved divide and conquer so one child would be picked out for favouritism. Again she would claim innocence, she had spent £1 on one and £20 on the other simply because she thought they would like those things. She would always spend alot on toys and however much we said we just didn't have room for them she couldn't resist buying them, she just couldn't she claimed it was impossible. So eventually we said other than Christmas and birthday presents everything else had to stay at her house to be played with on visits. Suddenly she found she really could resist buying all this stuff. Most of it was trivial stuff but some, like eating, was serious but it added up. One of the things that seriously annoyed my husband, but I actually found quite funny, was she "couldn't" remember my name which was odd as she could remember the name of everyone in my family, even people she only met at our wedding. I was always referred to as "the girl" or "it."
My MIL married a black soldier who was here in the war, she went to North America to be with him after the war but he died soon after so she returned with her mixed race baby (my husband.) She adored her husband, he was perfect but she wasn't above referring to my husband as a black bastard when the mood took her. She never managed to justify that one.
Rhinestone, I'd call it sad for the child and heartbreaking for the grandparents. I worked in a large police force for 20 years, I have seen real abuse and not seeing your grandparents doesn't compare particularly for a child who is loved and cared for by their parents.
Maddyone I don't know if you've seen it since you posted by Nina says she was cut off by her mother so it does happen that way round as well. I used to work with someone who cut off her children, they were adults, as she didn't want them to have contact with their father, her ex, and they wanted to see both of them.
Well that was a mammoth, hope I answered everything.

Well you've certainly wet my appetite for your book with that post nina.

It's true, we do change, we're not the same people we were before our estrangments. I will always love our ES but I honestly don't believe I would want to re connect with him. TBH the thought of having him back in my life fills me with dread.

We've fought so hard to get to where we are today. Moving was a huge decision and even though it wasn't nearly as difficult as we thought it would be, emotionally speaking, it was none the less an enormous wrench, leaving the home where we raised our children and lived for 28 years.

Rhinestone it isn't easy to let the anger go, grieve and move on with your life but it is easier when you begin to do those things. I've let our ES go, but the grieving and letting go of the anger are still a work in progress.

flump it's lovely to know that despite all that you and your husband had been through with his mother, that they were in contact before she died. I hope that, even if she never said so, she understood the part that you played and was grateful.

What a great way for this thread to end, with so many well written and informative posts.

Time to begin another.