Support for Grans cut-out of AC&GC lives

Oh I don't know Starlady I do sometimes wonder if either of them will seek us out when they're older. I do think they're being foolish by trying to ignore his questions, that will only fuel his inquisitiveness.

I do worry for our DS. He's never had a particularly close relationship with his brother but does try. He's extremely fond of his nephews, having no children of his own yet, and the questions arose when he was visiting over Christmas.

Our GS at 6 is obviously aware that he is his dad's brother and they have the same parents. I don't know exactly what was said because I don't ask, I don't want to know but I worry that if our ES and his wife want to keep ignoring the issue, they'll CO our DS in an attempt to keep their son's natural curiosity at bay.

These AC don't seem to realise that one day their children will be old enough to decide things for themselves and they wont be able to keep them from their GP's if they want to find them.

Well that's good to know maddyone I thought I was going to have to slap your wrist for driving while using your 'phone. Which musical are you going to see? Have a great time and keep hold of those thoughts.

Agree with you flump, that maddy missed an important reason for co. Or rather, she referred to it when she mocked the idea of gps having to "respect" their ac's and cil's "boundaries." Imo, if a gp who refuses to accept their ac's/cil's boundaries regarding the ac/cil's home/kids/personal lives, it's the gp who is being "controlling," not the ac/cil. Maddy, why shouldn't gps have to observe these kinds of boundaries just like anyone else? Does being a gp give one a special pass to step on ac/cil's feelings and ignore their wishes? Is it somehow ok to disrespect parental rules, even in front of their children, just because one is a gp?

I don't favor cos, but I would definitely lower contact with anyone who broke my rules for dd when she was a child or who openly disrespected my authority as her mum. Responsibility? Don't gps have a responsibility to treat other with respect? Yes, even those who are younger than they? Don't they have a responsibility to show their gc they respect the gc's parents (unless the parents are abusive, of course) and to avoid undermining the parents? Also, imo, parents have a responsibility to protect their kids - and yes, themselves - from anyone who would disrupt the parent/child relationship the way undermining gps often do (again, different if there's abuse involved).

I feel deeply for any egp. But as flump points out, it's not always the ac or cil's fault.

No, no details Rhinestone and as I say I don't ask because TBH I couldn't give a damn, not after more than 5 years. If he had genuine issues he should have discussed them with us but as you pointed out in your post, they don't want to talk and IMO that's because they know they're the ones at fault.

It was interesting to find out just recently what our DS meant by his brother's issues. We thought DS meant he had issues with us but it turns out he mean his own issues.

You p* him off, do something he doesn't like and that's it; you're out. I never realised he was like that. I raised him, cared for and loved him for 27 years and had no idea he was capable of such immature behaviour.

And we still don't know what we did to p* him off in the first place.

I didn't interpret maddy's post as mocking AC's rules and boundaries with regard to their children Starlady.

I may be wrong but I took it to be about unrealistic expectations, expecting P's and GP's to jump through hoops, to do what ever it takes, to keep their opinions to themselves and walk on egg shells for fear of being CO.

Of course the respect and responsibility you talk about should be forthcoming from P's to their AC and it should also be forthcoming from those AC to their P's.

AC cutting out their parents and their children's GP's without justification, are showing that they have no respect for their P's and are not bringing their children up responsibly.

It's Yogagirl's daughter, (I'm only briefly posting as 14 weeks pregnant and feel like crap) just thought I'd add to the story, I've always been worried about my niece being abused. There was always lots of men & boys visiting their house, also when I once babysat her, she told me that her stepdad pushed her down the stairs, she did at one time have her arm in a sling. My sister at the time said she always made things up. My bil also does drugs and deals drugs. I've thought about calling social services but it will be hard to prove. I've said to mum that I think the window of opportunity has closed and tbh if I saw my niece and nephew again then I wouldn't want to get close incase we get disowned again. I thought I had a chance to build bridges with my sister when I met up with her for lunch on valentines day 3 years ago (when I was pregnant with first) but I think my bil found out and banned her from seeing me, as she stopped replying to messages and blocked me on fb, which didn't make sense as she was positive at the lunch and even gave me a kiss goodbye. But oh well...I tried to reach out to her recently (probably my hormones again) but she ignored all messages/emails.

Congratulations Leokittyit's wonderful news about your forthcoming happy event.

This is so terrible for you and your mum. I can't begin to imagine how you must both feel. It's bad enough that you're not able to see your sister and her children without the constant nagging worry that there may be goings on within the home.

It's too easy to underestimate and power that some AC's partners have over them and it's the same for men being controlled and manipulated by their wives.

I remember on one occasion our ES came to our house in a terrible rage. The 3 of us talked it through and when he was leaving we hugged and told one another how much we loved one another. That was about 9.00 pm and when we woke up the next morning he'd sent the most terrible email in the early hours.

It was so awful that just the memory of it makes me feel sick. He was fine when he'd left our house but of course he went back home to her.

Thank-you smileless, that's it, their behaviour doesn't make sense when they seemed loving when you last saw them, it proves their in a controlling relationship, which is sad really. Especially with your es, his behaviour doesn't make sense when he was loving the night before.

I hope my niece is loved and looked after and it's just my imagination running away with me, but it can't be helped when you keep hearing terrible stories of children abused. I don't know if mum ever said, but just before we was disowned my bil and sister had a huge fight, she had a voice recording on her phone of him saying "if you ever think of leaving me then I will hunt you down like a dog and kill you". She deleted it when they made up, I do fear for my sister too but I just have to hope she is safe also.

Do you really believe that any estranged GP would be taken seriously if they contacted SS and said their GC were being emotionally abused because they weren't allowed to see them? I don't think not seeing grandparents is abuse. Yogagirl was talking about the child needing to be protected so I think she was talking about something else. Obviously SS won't be interested in a happy, well cared for child who doesn't happen to see their grandparents.

As I said with regards to my children I felt they were secure enough to cope with their grandmother although there were times when she was told that if she continued with certain things then I would not be able to bring the children again. Obviously she didn't think she was doing anything wrong but I had to put my children first.

GPs can be damaging without intending to be, it isn't always malicious.

Congratulations leokitty.
it is sad and worrying for you and your mum.
However some of her posts accusing myself and others of lying don't do her any favours.

My husband and I are quite well aware that we instructed 3 different solicitors over last 9 years.
Our bank account is even more aware.

I disagree with starlady if concerns are real then social services would act regardless of any rift.
However I understand you have no address for your sister yogagirl? However I believe you have seen photos and they appear well cared for.

Nina excellent post but we do know each other very well. I have been grateful for support we can give to each other and your kindness when we lost Rosie ?
Also maddyone.
Enjoy the show!

I am Still feeling yuck too and have had cancel my dear niece and little ones visit tomorrow ?
Rebooked for next week fingers crossed.

Have to get better as seeing surgeon next Friday.

I don't think all analysing reasons in the world Smilelss will affect our sad situations but I do agree it is tantamount to abuse to deprive in our case 3 little girls of all the love they would have received from us and their uncle not to mention extended family.

123flump you were marvellous to not stop contact with your difficult m i law and it reflects very well on you.

I even after 9 years can't believe my daughter can be so cruel, I have my faults like we all do, but could never ever have done that to my parents. I would not be able to sleep at night.

As granngrace says it's good be positive and rebuild our lives it's all we can do.

Sorry meant daughter yogagirl.

I did ring my daughters health visitor after she cut us off as I was so worried that she was ok. I never ever felt xxxxx wasn't being well cared for, or had any concerns at all just puzzled as to if my ed was ok.

She was extremely helpful and sorry that ed had cut her family out and able to reassure me that she was well,

So it could be worth phone call leokitty and yogagirl?

Thank-you celebgran, Yes I've seen pictures and they look happy but the perfect image shown on social media doesn't always portray what is happening behind closed doors.
My sister admitted to me in an email 2 years ago that she was suffering from depression.

I don't know where they live and I don't think it will achieve anything calling up, as we have no recent information for them . I know where the children go to school but can't really hang around the school gates.

I think it has become acceptable in today's society to disown anyone that seems "toxic" but I'm not afraid to admit that I have had a difficult relationship with my mil and my sil can be quite rude at times, but I'd never disown them as it's not fair on my husband and they are my daughter's nan and aunt. I'm just civil with them and keep contact to a minimum.

celebgran, thank you, she wasn't easy but she couldn't see the harm she was doing. It was sad really as she was her own worst enemy.

Contacting the HV was a good idea, at least you got that reassurance which must have been a relief.

MY DIL is in hospital, emergency surgery which sounds quite serious. I am back in fulltime mum mode with GC with me while she recovers. I think I'm too old for the school run. I feel totally exhausted but they are good, I just worry about what might happen and how it will affect them.

The worry never ends whatever we do.

* I'd never disown them as it's not fair on my husband* When my husband was CO from his mother I was the one who kept in touch and took children to see her. That wasn't always easy but on balance much as she drove him mad I think he was glad I did.

I'm glad if my comments helped. I've just written a new book, it will be published soon. It details the scapegoating and cutting off that goes on in families along with the bullying and the victimisation.
One thing I've realised is that often a trend operates through families and certain behaviours which are learned by other family members. I'm fairly certain that estrangement is punishment and it boils down to one factor. A lack of emotional intelligence. It's simply not in fashion to consider or even remotely imagine if there might be another way to communicate. Going NC, (no contact) is the immediate advice given for the most minor or non existent issues. It seems it's also the most convenient way to free up one's time simply by ditching a family member. I've researched this topic for years and it appears that in our Western culture, it's an epidemic. People are and can be incredibly selfish when it comes to working at relationships especially with other family members.

In many cases, there is no way to repair the damage. When parents have been denied contact with grandchildren for years, been left out of weddings, births, and other important events, there is no way to retrieve this lost time. The relationship will never completely heal.

But there is life after estrangement and it's really important to not base your entire life focusing on false hope. It's more important to grieve and then rebuild your life. I know a lot of parents who have done exactly this and they have learned to be happy again. This is good, we need to feel that our lives can continue and that we can park the family issue somewhere in the back of our minds and finally move on. Once we've grieved and accepted things, it gets a lot easier. It truly does. There are plenty of people out there that need our input. They don't have to be family. xx

I think you have completely hit the nail on the head ninal. I have grieved for the loss my sister, niece and nephew but have accepted I no longer know them and the relationship will never be the same, even if we reconnected. I have moved on and am now married and a mum. It is sad but this is the life they have chosen and you can't force them to be in your life. Concentrate on the people around you love and care abut you. Don't cross oceans for someone that wouldn't jump puddles for you.

nina in all your research don't you ever find that it is the GP who are being unreasonable? That their behaviour is such that it is damaging to other family members?

It seems strange to me both because of my own experiences and because GPs are human and come in many varieties just like their children do and of course they were once the parents and one day their children will be the GPs so unless you think people fundamentally change when they become GPs then they can't all be angels.

Your one sided view of this issue really makes it very unbelievable.

Leokitty ?Like 123flump that says what kind thoughtful person you are and I have no doubt seeing heartbreak your poor mum gone through would make you think how can you do this to another gran.

I do feel for you it seems like there could be problems.
All you can do is hope and pray she would turn to you if she needed you.
We only know school my little ones go to by accident as saw s i law waiting outside.
No of course you can't wait outside.
I would adore to see my little Grandaughters but would never ever consider doing that.
It's over 40miles away and we have drive that way when we go away for weekends ? However now it's way too painful we just accelerate and drive through quickly.
We attempted several times to call round curtains were drawn and door locked.
Never again. A bit of me died when she didn't respond to dh well meant letter about my back surgery at hospital so close to her.

However as others have said it's. Made me stronger like smilless to finally accept nothing I can do,
I do hope your mum can one day.

However of course I will be sad about it until day I die,
How can we not? As said before I gave her life and nurtured her for 28 years I would have laid down my life for her I loved her so still do.

Thank god for our son!

Sorry only just reading thread 123flump so sorry hear about your d i law ??
It must be exhausting but what else can you do?

I do hope she recovers well.

To keep the relationship going with your m i law was wonderful thing to do when even your husband couldn't cope with it.

Some people are their own worst enemies.
I had a client for 9 years wh sadly passed last year.
I know shenlooked forward to my 3 weeks visits when I did her nails and bleached her lip. However she could be so rude and snappy I had to grit my teeth. I got to know her and there was a kind side, but sadly she fell out with pretty well everyone.
She was so lonely and fell out with her b inlaw so he stopped sister visiting. Very sad.

It is sad isn't it, my MIL could have had such a nice time but she couldn't control herself. Too late now.

DIL is doing well thanks, children were able to see her so that was a bonus. I think they feel alot happier now. She isn't very comfortable but that is temporary and the main thing is the op is done and she is on the mend. I think I have the children till Sunday but might be longer. I think getting them up and out will be a bit much so they might go home after school and have time with her and a meal and then come here to bed and I will do the early shift.

Families are all so different, I can't believe her mother hasn't come, she lives a couple of hours away. She is retired so no work commitments. I'd want to be there if it was my daughter. There is no falling out or anything, just how they are. I remember when Prince Philip was rushed into hospital and hardly any family visited him. Odd isn't it, must seem terrible to you when you would do anything to be able to be there.

Nowt so queer as folk as they say.

It is 123flump well done for helping so much.

Yes is heartbreaking I am not as fit as when first became gran but yes would give anything to be allowed to help??

I see what you're saying about maddy's point, Smileless. Perhaps I misread.

Congratularions, LeoKitty and best wishes for a healthy new baby!

I think it's good you shared with us that you have issues with your own mil and sil - you're not just some lucky lady who knows nothing of il problems (besides those with her bil). I agree with your idea of minimum contact for yourself ("low contact" - "lc") rather than trying to cut them out of your dh and dc's lives. Imo, you are very wise. Sorry the same doesn't seem to be true for your sister and bil.

So sorry about your worries about abuse. It seems to be you definitely have reason to think that. Concerns about physical abuse might be worth reporting because it can be proven/observed. It would antagonize them more, of course, but you're co of their lives, anyhow. If the abuse isn't going on now, though, of course, there will be nothing to show. And, of course, it's your call.

Flump, you're the reason I don't spend much time. If you think you know it all, there's no point me commenting. I'll take my one sided view and leave you to it.

Yes Leokitty your mum (*Yogagirl*) did tell us about that some time ago. She along with Celebgran first welcomed me on to the estrangement thread more than 5 years ago.

During that time we have shared a lot of our story on the threads and via private messages with one another. It's understandable of course that other posters are simply not fully aware of all that we've been subjected too.

flump nina's view on estrangement in no more one sided than your own. We can only talk of our own personal experiences and nina is also drawing on her extensive research on the issue of estrangement.

You have not taken the decision to cut a family member out of your's and your children's lives, and have not been cut out your self. God forbid that you would ever experience the latter, I'm sure you'd have a different perspective.

Nina ?I do t think flump Meant it that way she worked at lettering her kids see her m i law even tho her husband could t cope with the problems.
All she meant was it isn't always the Ac fault,

I do agree Nina it is like an epidemic.

I read a lovely story in mail yesterday about familymhaving their gran living with them at first because her son was ill and then they missed her so moved bigger house, and she moved in it was so heartwarming. Did anyone else read it,?

Smilless gosh 5 years it's only good thing come out of estrangement the good friends and support have found on this thread and Nina group.