Kept from grands I need advice

When did the OP state that the Bible verses she sent were to "effectively accuse them of being bad people" Cornishclio? And why assume that by sending verses she's pushing religion down their throats?

I wouldn't cut a parent, p.i.l. or GP out of mine and my children's lives for reasons such as these and would have doubts about anyone would do such a cruel thing for no good reason.

I assume from your postcornishclio that if you'd given un-solicited advice to your AC and partner regarding their children, made comments about your AC's partners' mental health on a forum under a name which is not your own, and which your AC and their partner may be totally unaware of, and sent Bible verses to your AC who has previously asked you to pray for them and their family, you'd accept without question being cut out.

She wasn't cut out just because of the Bible verses. By her own admission she went to their home unannounced, said she would not stop giving unsolicited advice, looked up their address when they didn't give it to her, and has continued to send messages after they have told her they don't want further contact. Prior to this she already had more contact than many people get. Frankly it does not surprise me that she was cut off. It appears that she does not seem to recognize that her son and DIL are adults and they have their own boundaries - you get to see the kids a couple of times a month, call before you come over, don't give unsolicited advice. None of those boundaries are unreasonable. I've been a nurse for 12 years. Let's say I was hired on a unit as a new staff member and let's say the head nurse on the unit had less experience than I did. If I told the head nurse that I would be giving her advice on how to do her job because I had more experience than she did, and I didn't intend to stop because that's just the way I am, I wouldn't last long at that job. Just because she thinks she is helping doesn't mean it is help. If her family members don't want it it's not help anymore. How would you feel if someone rearranged your kitchen because it made more sense to them and insisted that every time they came over they would rearrange your kitchen because that's just the way they are? Would you be letting that person visit frequently?

But we're not talking about someone making frequent visits are we, we're talking about a mother and a GM being cut out. And, we're not talking about someone only being allowed infrequent visits, we're talking about a M and GM whose been cut out.

When I read that there are those who aren't surprised that someone can be cut out for the reasons given by the OP, I'm not surprised that sadly, there are so many P's and GP's in the same nightmare situation.

Smileless2012

I think that sending bible verses to your children is a strange thing to do and would never do it. Neither would anyone else I know, even those who are religious. Religion IMHO should be a personal and private thing and not something which is effectively forced down peoples throats which she is doing as her son and DIL asked her not to contact them. From the sound of her posts she considers her son and daughter in law to be bad people for cutting her out, without their input we don't know if this is the case. I would hazard a guess the bible verses are used to emotionally blackmail them into letting her see them again.

There is obviously a huge backstory here but the OP gives the impression that she feels she is entitled to contact, entitled to give advice, even if unwanted and unasked for, and to visit as and when she wishes. I think this is selfish behaviour and does not afford her son and DIL the privacy they need within their own family. She actually was visiting quite a few times and assumed as she was happy to let her parents visit whenever they wanted that her son and his wife would be the same as her. Times change though and what happened in previous generations is not the same as now. Young couples work and dads are more involved in their children's lives these days. The role of a matriarch in todays society is quite outdated I think.

I think in those sorts of situations the OPs family should be able to say they are not comfortable with the OP being around her family given she does not get on with the DIL and I got the impression she was actually nasty to the DIL in person not just on a forum. She obviously does not like her, whether it is justified or not who knows.

Some mothers and GM deserve to be cut out of their childrens lives. They are not all nice people. I think it is up to all of us, both children and parents to look at how our behaviour and actions impact on the lives of people around us and some people just seem to think they can do and say as they like and family will accept it.

I do not doubt that the OP loves her son and GC but she has a badly misguided way of showing it. I think if she takes a step back and really apologises to her DIL and respects their wishes for a while to keep her distance hopefully they may reconsider. In the meantime she should find other outlets for her time.

Smileless: "When I read that there are those who aren't surprised that someone can be cut out for the reasons given by the OP, I'm not surprised that sadly, there are so many P's and GP's in the same nightmare situation."

Although I would never advocate CO and am shocked by what appears to be an increasing trend, I can see that the behaviours described by the OP might well be experienced by the Son/DIL/Grandchildren in a way that is intolerable of even damaging! The OP does seem to be struggling to understand that her opinion/advice does not have to be taken, that her way of doing things with a child (which may include food/sleeping/attitudes/moral guidance for instance|) may not be what the parents want for their child, that her presence if too frequent (and if she is quite an overbearing person maybe??) might impact too much or be damaging to the family life that they want!! As someone who treads on eggshells, and fears CO, I am acutely conscious of the need to stick to the "rules" whatever ones own private views are, and I do!!
As I said previously, on the face of it, this situation seems so awful, painful and unfair, but the OPs comments have made me wonder about how all this has been experienced by her son and family - not that I agree with CO, without apparent explanation because I don't and never will.

"Without their input we don't know if that is the case" No, cornishclio we don't know if that is the case, that's the point surely. IMO it's understandable for the OP to think her S and d.i.l. are bad people for cutting her out; I think our ES and his wife are people for doing the same thing to us.

Yet, without their input you "hazzard a guess" that she's used Bible verses to emotionally blackmail them, why? There's nothing to suggest this is the case from her posts.

We occasionally exchange Bible verses with our DS to give one another support. This isn't strange IMO in the case of the OP when her S has previously asked her to pray for him and his family. It suggests to me that they have talked openly about their faith and has been something that they've shared.

They sent her a "do not contact letter", have you any idea what it's like to receive something like that from your own child? We received ours over 5 years ago. "You are no longer a part of mine and ..... lives and are to stay away".

I can quote it exactly because I will never forget what he wrote and will never forget the pain that reading it caused us.

MadgranI posted earlier that I could see why problems have developed between the OP, her S and his family which is why things need to be discussed and solutions need to be found. When an AC refuses to entertain counselling, as with the OP's son, it's pretty obvious that there's no desire to find a solution.

It must be very difficult and painful for you to live with the fear of being CO. No parent, GP or AC should have to live with that.

'I continue to send bible verses in the mail to their home. God does not like unforgiving people and they are turning away from him in excluding me.'

OP also said she didn't expect the verses to heal the rift just to remind them they are forsaking god.

She's not swapping bible verses with her son she's blackmailing him with them.
IMO you dont get to be rude, selfish, judmental, hurtful and disrespectful to anyone then use your religion, which you share, to blame them for not tolerating it.

I'm sure the bible says lots of inspirational quotes fit for every occasion. I've just googled one.

'Proverbs 11:17 Your kindness will reward you, but your cruelty will destroy you.'

Which is just as applicable to the OP's son and his wife as it is to her, perhaps more so as they are the ones who have cut her out.

Exactly.
Quotes for any situation which can be adapted to any situation.
She can't throw them about if they apply to her too.

Smileless thankyou !

How can anyone of the younger generations take seriously an old lady who is religious in that particular way? Cannot they accept that she is eccentric but lovable despite the Bible quotes? The Bible quoting may be boring but it's not a good excuse to ostracise the old lady for goodness sake.

Madgran

If you read the history she was not ostracized because of the Bible verses.

1. She said she was going to be giving her opinions regardless of how they felt about them because that's "just the way she is".

2. She was invited over once or twice a month. She got upset because they told her to call first, and when she called and they were busy, she took it upon herself to show up unannounced.

3. She insisted she has rights to the grandchildren.

4. She was given a "do not contact" letter, yet persists in contacting them despite their expressed wishes.

Can you see why she has been cut off? Please explain to me why people should be required to spend time with someone who shows up unannounced, insists she has rights to their minor children, insists on giving her opinion when she has been told it's unwanted, and persists in contacting them despite having been given a no contact letter. She doesn't respect their boundaries and insists that she should not have to do so because "that's just the way she is". Prior to the cut off she had more contact with her grandchildren than many parents do, yet she decided on her own that that wasn't enough for her.

Nurse It's called love & compassion, love for your mother, love for your children's grandmother, the mother of your husband, that love them all so. It's called having a heart, it's called 'doing the right thing' not just to your fellow human being, but to your loving mother/mother-in-law!

Your opinionated, over-bearing mother/mother-in-law, yogagirl.

Yogagirl is no more opinionated than any other poster on GN FarNorth. We all have our opinions and should be able to express them without being insulted by another poster.

Her post is spot on. We know the reasons why the OP has been CO, some of us don't agree that the reasons justify this cruel and hurtful behaviour and not all who feel this way, are themselves estranged.

You have no idea how traumatic it is to receive a 'no contact' letter, I know because we've had one. Be thankful you haven't FarNorth. I sincerely hope you never do, but if that were to happen I hope no one accuses you of being an "over-bearing mother/mother-in law

I didn't mean yogagirl. Sorry if it sounded like that.
I meant the OP and her behaviour.

Loving someone means wanting the best for them.
Your idea of 'best' might not be the same as theirs, so if they tell you of changes they'd like you to make eg arrange visit times, don't give opinions on their parenting, then it would be loving behaviour to go along with making those changes.
('you' in this post meaning anyone)

I count myself very lucky in that I had a close relationship with my mum and mother in law. My mother in law never interfered, gave advice when asked and called before visiting. She was always welcome in my house as I knew she was never going to thrust her advice, religion or opinions down my throat even though I’m sure, especially with my first child, there may have been times she was itching to. My children benefitted hugely from having her around and I believe the more people children have in their lives the better. Sadly she passed away when they were still small and I still miss her to this day. I know how she would have enjoyed seeing them grow into adults. I think the message is that in laws and parents of adults making their own way in the world should step back, wait to be asked and allow their offspring to make their own way. If advice is wanted it will be asked for. I also believe that ac should never co any family members unless they can, hand on heart, have a very good reason to do so as you are denying your children of the joys of having loving grandparents.

Oh and my children are all grown now and I keep to my own advice and it seems to work as I get lots of invites and am often asked for advice!

Agnurse , I appreciate your insistence on facts.
"1. She said she was going to be giving her opinions regardless of how they felt about them because that's "just the way she is".

2. She was invited over once or twice a month. She got upset because they told her to call first, and when she called and they were busy, she took it upon herself to show up unannounced.

3. She insisted she has rights to the grandchildren.

4. She was given a "do not contact" letter, yet persists in contacting them despite their expressed wishes."

My responses:
1. She's undiplomatic.

2.She cannot understand how she can be unwelcome and is very unhappy because she's unwelcome. She is either a) slow learner or b)her relatives are callous, or c) her relatives have insufficient patience to explain to her so she can understand. Complete ostracism is unjustified in the circumstances.

3. She needs to know the law whatever that is.

4. That 'do not contact' letter makes my blood run cold. How cruel! Which relative was responsible for that monstrosity?
This is an old lady who wants something simple; to be with her grandkids. I wonder if the relatives have given her a list of their requirements e.g. "don't talk about your religion to the children." Or whatever else that would annoy them . So they can all compromise. These relatives have the whip hand socially and it's up to them to be merciful.

I absolutely do not intend to be rude or hurtful to anyone reading, but as this thread is contining without OP, I feel I must speak a little more plainly in the general discussion.

I am taken aback at the insistence that after someone has attempted to obtain a court order to force your children to see them, that you can ever resume a relationship of trust with them.

There is no way back from court proceedings. This is why family lawyers, counsellors et al desperately try to herd litigious grandparents toward mediation, because court is an inherently adverserial process. That bell, and its accompanying emotional and financial stresses, can never be unrung.

In most of the estrangement cases I have handled, it is the threat of court proceedings (always against my advice!) that has hammered the nails permanently in the coffin of the relationship.

I am also taken aback at the lack of concern that OP obtained the address of people who had moved without a forwarding address in an attempt to evade her pursuit, and has continued sending unwanted communications. If OP was an ex romantic partner of son or dil and was behaving in this way, I struggle to think any of these actions would not be thought completely unacceptable.

Her stated love for her son and grandchildren does not in any way excuse her comduct. Ex romantic partners also believe they love the people they persecute. It is not accepted as an excuse for their actions. No one is entitled to a relationship with someone who does not want to have a relationship with them. It does not matter whether that person is a boyfriend or a parent: an adult has a complete right to unilaterally end a relationship with another adult.

The grandchildren in all honesty are a complete red herring in conflicts like the one outlined here. By the time an estrangement is this severe that court proceedings are involved, what a grandchild has learned about the grandparent is that they are someone who frightens and upsets their parents, costs them money the parents usually struggle to afford, and dread the upset of the continual drip of the communications or worse, the unwanted contact in person.

It is nearly impossible to prove in court that it is in a child’s best interests to have forced contact with a person who has had such a high conflict relationship with their parents that it ends up in court, let alone if there is a history of harassment attached. Add in the length of time the litigation takes, and this person no longer is meaningfully a grandparent, but a scary stranger. The level of conflict around a possible forced contact only makes it worse. In circumstances of estrangement such as this, even parental contact may not be ordered, amd parents have a legal right to that contact. Grandparents have none. I have seen cases where the grandchildren were absolute strangers to these grandparents, including more than one where the grandparent had never met the child. This forced contact would be no more meaningful to the child than being required to spend two hours a month with the Tesco checkout lady. Court proceedings foster an adversarial, win at all costs mentality, and the truth is many of these plaintiffs are beaten before they start.

There is, in a situation like OP’s, no point in continuing her conduct. In the UK harassment of this nature is borderline criminal.

It is not an act of love, parental or otherwise, to continually persecute someone who has terminated your relationship. It is hard, indeed perhaps impossible, to emotionally come to terms with a permanent estrangement between parent and child. But to pursue ‘reconciliation’ endlessly on a practical level almost always ends any possibility, however slight, that any rapprochement may occur.

I am sorry to speak so plainly. It gives me no joy to pass on my own sad professional experiences, and these are very unpleasant cases to handle. But there are many people who read this forum but choose not to post. If they are reading this thread from a UK background and in a similar situation, “just keep trying!” is advice that in 999 cases of a thousand, will only bring them to worse grief.

Not everything in life can be accepted, or come to terms with. But that does not change the reality of the situation one is in.

I'mgummybears as I don't recall reading a post that insists that having attempted to "obtain a court order to force your children to see them, that you can ever resume a relationship of trust with them".

I agree that such action could indeed be 'the final nail in the coffin' but it must also be acknowledged that it would be as, if not more difficult for some parents who've had estrangement thrust on them by their AC, to ever trust their AC again.

My brother, now a retired family lawyer, never attempted "to herd litigious grandparents toward meditation". You say you have handled cases of this nature, but not in what capacity.

You must be aware that GP's need to seek leave of the courts (gain permission) before going for contact and that they together with the parents are strongly recommended to go for mediation as failure to do so, can reflect negatively on the party that refuses.

You say you have seen cases where the GP's are complete strangers to their GC but how can that be when a pre requisite to even the smallest chance of the GP's being successful, is to demonstrate they had a close and meaningful relationship with their GC prior to the estrangement.

If GP's have become 'strangers' due to the estrangement that is because the children's parents have denied contact and made them so.

Anything negative that a child who has no contact with GP's 'learns' about them comes from the parents. We are talking about children who aren't old enough to make decisions for themselves. Why would it be necessary for them to be told that their GP's frighten and upset their parents, cost them money etc? For goodness sake, the only people who could possibly benefit from frightening and upsetting their children with scary stories about their GP's, are the parents themselves.

It has previously been posted on this thread that GP's have no rights when it comes to their GC; we are all aware of that and are also aware that children have a right to know their extended family including GP's.

I am rather taken aback at the fuss that's been made because the OP managed to obtain her son's new address. We are not discussing an ex partner here, we are discussing a mother finding out where her son and GC are now living. If it really were such a terrible thing, why is it presumably so easy?

TBH I question whether your post is based purely on your own professional experiences as for me, it is biased against EP's and GP's. You don't say what your profession is, perhaps you've only dealt with cases where the EAC is completely faultless and has no choice but to estrange their parents.

That doesn't apply to all cases of estrangement and IMO doesn't apply here. The OP in a later post said that her son told her he needed to be a better son. If he's so certain that he's doing the right thing by her total she exclusion, why would he say such a thing?

Reminds me of our ES when I was trying to talk to him and his wife was in the house banging about and slamming doors while their 2 year old was upstairs. "We mustn't do this it causes too much trouble".

Smileless2012
IMO it's understandable for the OP to think her S and d.i.l. are bad people for cutting her out; I think our ES and his wife are people for doing the same thing to us.

Whilst I fully understand why the OP would think that or you being in a similar situation there are usually two sides to every story I think. Whether it is a clash of personalities between GPs and the AC or their partner or if either party has been unkind, judgemental or simply resents boundaries being overstepped. I don't know though having been fortunate not to have a relationship with our AC or their partners and not being refused contact with our grandchildren. So I am speaking from a privileged position. I do speak with some level of understanding of how the OPs AC could have come to their decision to CO contact having had a less than ideal relationship with my MIL.

My MIL was a staunch catholic and had a habit of quoting religious verses or bible stories at us when our daughters were small. She jammed religion down my DHs throat from the time he could talk and he resented it bitterly and rebelled in his early teens. We refused to get married in a Catholic church feeling it would be hypocritical as we had no intention of bringing our kids up in the Catholic religion.

We would never have cut her out though and we made every effort to ignore this tendency to force religion on us which we hated plus her tendency to turn up unannounced until we spoke to her telling her it was unacceptable. She took it reasonably well but wasn't happy about it as she thought that as we were family we should welcome her any time even if we were due to go out, it was our one and only lie in date of the week and she turns up 9am on a Sunday because that was convenient for her or we had other plans with my family or other friends or relatives. It is a sort of self obsession which totally ignores their ACs other obligations, commitments or wishes.

She was lovely with our DDs though when they were little, less so when they were older and told them they were bad granddaughters for not being constantly at her beck and call. She was nasty to my DH in spite of him visiting her four or five times a week and arranging carers etc when she was no longer able to look after herself. I kept my distance but organised all her benefits and finances for her and would help with housework, gardening and shopping. Nothing we did was good enough for her. She died a bitter old lady and yes it would have been easier for us if we had cut her out in the beginning when she stalked into our house a week after our DD had been born and deliberately woke her so she could have a cuddle with her not being willing to wait until she woke up.

I have learnt from the mistakes I feel my MIL made and try to be considerate with my DDs and son in law. I don't assume that we should have rights to see them or expect other things from them. Any help we want or need from them I would like to be freely given out of love not duty. We are lucky so far in that they are very loving AC and appreciate all the help we give them with childcare and emotional support in difficult times.

Smileless, I apologised for speaking plainly at the outset of my post as I did not want to cause hurt or distress to anyone reading. I am sorry that I have offended you. Perhaps if I clarify a few things that have confused you, you will look at my thoughts differently.

I do not have a ‘bias’ against estranged grandparents. I have represented both estranged grandparents and the adult children in numerous cases. I have always undertaken in good faith to be fully honest with my clients about their prospects of success, to consider every possible method of resolving their family disputes, and to never mislead them about their chances of success. It is easy to smile and promise your clients the earth, amd then take their money whilst knowing they are barking up a gum tree. I consider this grossly unethical, and have never done it. Perhaps I sound a little more strident in writing than I do in person, which I apologise, but I do not lie. I also am not estranged from any person in my family circle. Please do not impute a bias to my words that is not there; I have no personal dog in this fight at all.

What I do have (as with your brother) is a work history as a family lawyer in a specialist family law practice (not in England). I gave up several years ago to have children. I saw on a daily basis people in terrible emotional and often financial predicaments, and I did my best to help them. Some of these people were involved inestrangements between adult family members.

If there was a sharp note in my post when I spoke about ‘poor advice’, it is a hangover from these times. A continual problem I faced was that desperate (and by the time they are paying to see a lawyer, they are desperate) people would be given hopefully well meant advice by friends, facebook, and internet forums about legal routes to solve their problems that at best were wildly inappropriate to my client’s situation, and in some instances were quite difficult to take at face value.

(I don’t speak only of grandparents groups here either; the forums for divorcing mothers with care of minor children and groups for estranged fathers continually sent clients to me with goals that were frankly not possible and often in contravention of the law. It was difficult to persuade clients who had been convinced by a story about a friend of a friend that they were unequivocally in the right of the benefits of mediation. Mediation is not in any way an easy option. Some people are not ready, at the point of legal consultation, to do the hard work that mediation involves from all parties. It is however better to break off a difficult mediation and leave the door cracked open for a future attempt than to proceed headlong in adversarial litigation that from the client’s perspective, is doomed to fail.)

It was left to me to deliver, as gently as possible, the blow: what my client had been told was at best highly improbable and at worst simply not possible - the number of people who came to me with the wind in their sails about a ‘change in the law’ that was no more than newspaper scuttlebutt was deeply sad. They spoke of “never giving up” and “a mother’s rights” in the face of being threatened with harassment proceedings. (The law as we know does not give one’s mother any more leeway to harass one than it gives to one’s ex partner.) I was left to explain to these unfortunate folk that their commitment to trying to contact their estranged family members was about to start getting them into some pretty serious hot water. This is not a pleasant conversation to have.

I did not enjoy these cases in the slightest. (I refer to all files opened for a client as their ‘case’ - due to cost and honestly, generally poor prospects of success, we were reluctant to litigate unless the client insisted or we felt they at least had a fighting chance. Most of our cases ended well in the pre litigation stage.

Some, I am pleased to say, at least produced after much time and effort, a path to some sort of relationship or at least phonecalls and cards. But this I will say: I have no idea whether my experience is representative, but no client in estrangement type situations ever came to me with clean hands. They came with a story that at many points could have been handled differently by one or indeed both parties.

And now they were at the point of lawyers, and I tried to help them as best I could before things became irreparable in this life.

I will say that the cases where there were children (estrangement, divorce, contact, care proceedings, the whole spectrum) I never saw a child older than about three or four who was not aware of and affected by what was going on. I do not assign blame here. As I say, I have no dog in this fight. I represented all my clients with the same commitment to help them regardless of their situation. Most (sadly not all) were normal people with reasonable intentions who had had events get away from them. It can happen to anyone. You do not see the best of your clients in family law; they are understandably not on their best behaviour.

But I stand by this; I never once, myself or in my firm, saw a case where actually proceeding to litigation for an order for contact against the parents’ wishes (which is what I mean by forced contact; it is contact the parents would not otherwise have granted) did not completely nuke the hope of any actual relationship amongst the adult parties.

And to speak very frankly, if the parent(s) with whom the child resides do not want the child to go to contact, the child will not go and there is damnably little chance of enforcing the contact order. Even if you are the child’s other parent.

Again, whilst this may be unpalatable, it does not make it untrue. I was never in the business of giving people unrealistic or unreasonable false hope, and this is why (speaking I did generally aside from OP’s tale) I wanted to sound a note of caution.