Kept from grands I need advice

Immagamma, this distress you feel is not your fault since you don't even know what you have done to deserve being ostracised. It's unconscionably cruel . I urge you to seek moral support from your priest or church congregation if you have one. If not , since you like Bible verses, join a church or mosque, and seek solace there by active participation in church or mosque activities.

"I forgot to say Madgran that one reason why sometimes there's no discussion or explanation about the estrangement is because it is without justification."

Smileless thanks for that .. something else to think about.

The problem is not Bible verses per se. Rather the problem is that the OP seems to want to use them to "get the kids back in line".

The issue I see here is that the OP seems to demand that her son and DIL allow her to see the GC according to what the OP wants and not according to what works for their family. For example, she said herself that she told her son she was going to give advice no matter what and that's just the way she is. I'm a nurse. What if I started telling my family members that because I'm a nurse I can will be offering my professional opinion on any and all medical issues I observe because that's just the way I am? Even as a parent you don't have the right to criticise someone else's parenting and then say "Well I'm just not the kind of person who can keep my opinions to myself". If you own a company you can't start telling your accountant how to do his job and say it's acceptable because you own the business and that's just the way you are. If the children learn from Grandma that Mom is not a good parent they may feel they don't need to respect Mom because Grandma says something different. Is that really the type of example a grandmother should be setting for her grandchildren?

Also, the OP seems to believe that it should be perfectly acceptable to treat her children's home as her own. Are the parents never allowed to have family time with just them and their kids because Grandma needs to be around all the time?

It sounds as if this is a case of mismatched expectations. The reality is that parents have the right to make decisions regarding their children. Frankly if someone came and said they had rights to my children they would immediately be cut off. Grandparent rights cases can be very expensive. If the OP decides to go to court, she could cost the family thousands of pounds in legal fees. That could well be taking away money needed for basics.

Is the situation sad? Absolutely. But the parents may still need time to heal before they are ready to resume a relationship. Forcing them to accept contact before they're ready is not the answer.

Only a parent who has a history of abuse toward his/her own child(ren) and is therefore realistically considered a threat to his/her GC should be totally excluded

Not true at all. It is up to the parents who their children see. If someone else’s behaviour causes distress and upset to the family then they are under no obligation to see them.

Grandparents who think they have a ‘right’ to see their grandchildren may feel this is very unfair, but the reality is the only people who have ‘rights’ over their children are parents until their children are 18.

If you want to continue to see your children as adults (& therefore grandchildren) you have to accept you have no ‘right’ of contact. They’re adults, they can see who they like. If you make them stressed and miserable they can choose not to see you. And that will mean you lose contact with the grandchildren as well. The best way to ensure you continue to see adult children is to be easy going, non demanding and respect their different opinions. I have differences of opinions with my parents, in laws and pretty much grown up children. I have to stand back from browbeating my children with my views but I expect the same courtesy from my in laws and parents. I used to get ill before my MIL visited because I was so stressed at the upcoming visit. I managed to put in some pretty big boundaries and it sort of works okay but if I hadn’t managed to ram those boundaries in place there would have been difficult because her visits were making me ill (I can’t believe they were much fun for her either). Her relationship with dh has been really damaged over the years as well, which I feel is very sad.

Less is definitely more with adult children.

Nurse OP can't say how they feel about all this, as they wont talk to her!

Madgran I apologized, even though I didn't know what I was apologising for, I asked for a meeting, to include his parents, I said if there was something that I needed to change, I'd change it, nothing worked no meeting, just dead cut off!

Maggie when you are asked to back off, 3yrs worth!!!, and it's the people you love more than any in the world, your son, your grandchildren, it's an impossible ask I think this is OP's only child too. I think it was Luckylegs that said you need them, more than they need you could also say 'you love them, more than they love you^ as that is clearly the case

Why, oh why, can't these AC of ours at least go low contact, once a month in the park, then there would be none of this, all happy, GC happy to see grandma, grandma happy to see beloved GC & AC, surely that's not too much to ask.

I'm turning to next page, so hope my post is in keeping, sometimes is not when you look at the next postings...

Why, oh why, can't these AC of ours at least go low contact, once a month in the park, then there would be none of this, all happy, GC happy to see grandma, grandma happy to see beloved GC & AC, surely that's not too much to ask

Presumably because it would distress them (the adult children) too much. In some cases it will be because the adult children’s tolerance is very low in others it will be because the parent/grandparent is not capable of behaving reasonably. I know people on both ‘sides’ if you like. The decision rests with those who have chosen to withdraw contact.

I have an aunt who has chosen to go no contact with me (& other members of the family - increasing numbers over the years, I was ‘dropped’ early). I have no idea why - we didn’t have a row or anything and I haven’t seen her for 13 years. As far as I’m concerned the ball is in her court. If she wants to talk to me then I’m happy to talk to her, if not, well that’s her choice. My middle son may well be studying one street away from where she lives next year. They wouldn’t recognise each other if they stood next to each other. If she hadn’t withdrawn I’m sure he’d be popping around for a cup of tea. I find that a bit weird as she was quite a bit part of my childhood, but so be it.

Nezumi65, interesting. Only the parents have rights? So do the children not have the right to know their extended family? My DM cut off her own parents before I was born. Because she wouldn’t discuss it, I have no photos, stories about them, no family history from that side of my family apart from dates of birth, marriage, death, no idea whether any of my DGC take after them. My DC, DGC and so on have been denied this knowledge too - it’s gone forever. As for glibly saying adult grandchildren can make contact if they wish. By the very nature of things the grandparents are often dead by then.

Legally no, they have no rights. Just as we have no rights over our adult children once they turn 18. Just as I have no rights to force my aunt to have a relationship with my children or to insist on a continuing relationship with my cousins. She has made the decision to withdraw so has controlled access since then.

If someone feels very strongly that they need to withdraw from their parents then if the grandchildren are young that typically means losing grandparent and grandchild contact as well. I don’t see how it could be any other way really if the relationship is causing so muscle stress and anguish. If the grandchildren are older & able to keep their own contact, ime they tend to be left to make up their own minds.

Legally, no. Of course not. We all know that. So how about morally, ethically?

Immagamma I am truly sorry you find yourself in this position. I have to agree with other that your behaviour has caused this situation and that you need to really apologise for that. Your dil had a new baby and you overstepped the boundaries in many ways.

Your son and dil are not blameless in this but a new mother doesnt need anyone criticising their parenting and your son needs to be a husband and father before he is a son. He is right to stand by his wife.

You should allow your son to come to family events without his wife. Then give him, to take to her, a real apology. You brought your son up to be forgiving, you say, and in time they may forgive you. First you truly need to be sorry and be prepared not to act the same way again. You still sound a long way from that.

Times change and grandparents can not model their behaviour on the way their grandparents acted.

People don't have to be physically or even overtly verbally abusive to be damaging. They don't even have to mean to hurt or damage. If a parent believes that the way a grandparent is behaving is damaging to the their child and the grandparent doesn't seem able to stop, then no contact may be the only way forward.
My FIL had very fixed views about male and female behaviour and constantly criticised and mocked one of my children who did not conform to his idea of a real boy.
When challenged/pleaded with he would say that my son needed to toughen up, that we were giving in to undesirable traits, and horror of horrors, our son would become a "Nancy boy".
My son dreaded our visits, would cry (proof of his not being a real boy, obviously) and in the end made his own decision that he didn't want to see his grandparents. I stayed at home with him while my husband took the other acceptable children.
Looking back I think this was wrong. It caused a rift between my children. I wish now that we had gone non contact as an entire family.

My DH has cut off his mom. It's easy to make him the villain, he's not, he was saving his sanity.

I can see it from a different side. I saw what she did to him, how she spoke to him, how she belittled him, made fun of him and manipulated him. She treated me like shit on her shoe. Useful though cause I was the oven for her grandchildren.
Nothing was good enough, he bent over backwards for her and facilitated visits weekly but he had a constant stream of criticism.

It all kicked off when I was labour with my youngest. We couldn't visit X day as I had a midwife app (was in slow labour for 4 weeks!) And we ended up with her in hysterics down the phone because DH wasn't making time for her. She genuinely wanted him to leave me at home whilst in labour and visit her.

It went from bad to worse.
Haven't seen her in years but that snippet wasn't rare. We had a few of those or phone calls from relatives to tell DH 'off' for upsetting his mom when she couldn't get her own way...but only told them the parts to make her look like the poor lamb and DH filled them in on the whole story which didn't put her in the greatest light.
It went from bad to worse and
she ended up lying about having Cancer.
I lost my dad to it.

She doesn't see a problem with anything she's done and it's all my fault. That's what she tells people.
We ended up in counselling and can manage her behaviour when it crops up.

You cannot comprehend the massive head fuck DH has been his entire life. He has been emotionally abused whether she agrees or not. Does he want her having anything to do with his children? No and I don't blame him.

Legally, no. Of course not. We all know that. So how about morally, ethically

No, tbh I don’t believe there’s a moral or ethical right to maintain family contacts. If a family member is causing someone great distress then the advantage of being an adult is you can choose not to see them. If you believe someone would be damaging to your children then you can keep them away.

FWIW I do know cases where I think the grandparents have been treated badly tbh (& know others where they most definitely have not), but I feel sad for them and feel they have been treated unfairly - I don’t feel a moral or ethical code has been broken.

You make a lot of assumptions agnurse for example the use of Bible verses to "keep the kids in line". How do you know? We've not been told which verses the OP has sent.

And, as a nurse, if you did decide to offer your expertise to for eg your AC regardless of whether or not it was wanted, would you expect to be cut out of his/her life and the lives of GC because of it?

I stand by my previous post Nezumi that only parents who are a realistic threat to the welfare of their AC and GC are justifiably permanently excluded. You mentioned low tolerance on the part of some AC. In that case they should hope that when their own children grow up they'll have more tolerance toward them or they too could find themselves cut out.

After all, this is the lesson that they are being taught isn't it, that anyone and everyone is disposable, even your own parents.

Children do have rights, they have a right to know members of their extended family and this forms part of the Children Act. There are cases where an application to the courts has been successful. GP's must first prove that they had an established relationship with their GC before they were cut out, which of course cannot apply to GP's who've never had the opportunity to get to know their GC.

A judge will also consider the rights of the child to know his/her GP's and other family members. That right does not supersede any other factors but is taken into consideration.

It's a shame that you have an aunt who has decided to go non contact but I don't think that being cut out by an aunt, regardless of how close you may have been, would be as traumatic as being cut out by your own child and as a consequence being cut out of your GC's lives as well.

No of course it’s not as traumatic (although members of her family closer to her gave also been cut out, which may have been traumatic). My point was as adults we have the right to see who we want. We don’t have to see people who cause us great pain. Children don’t get to choose & rare court cases aside generally parents will decide. Those decisions made by the courts will be based on what is in the best interests of the children rather than any moral concept of a grandparent having rights over their grandchildren. That’s why the ongoing relationship is necessary.

As I said I know cases where I believe the gradparent has been treated unfairly (& know both parties well), but also know cases where frankly the adult children should have stopped contact years before they did. Of course their parents think they have done nothing wrong and they have been treated harshly. In all cases they are (at very least) hyper critical and have been unable to recognise that as adults their children can make their own choices. It often seems to take years of distress before going non-contact - I’m not sure it’s something people ever do lightly. Even in the cases where I think the grandparent has been treated unfairly there were clearly years of issues bubbling away. Sadly.

Yes Nezumi it is sad, but it isn't always a case where there have been "years of issues bubbling away". As hard as it may be to accept, some parents find themselves cut out because of their AC's partner.

That does not of course absolve the AC of responsibility but in cases such as these, estrangements occur after a lifetime of a close and loving relationship and the only thing that changed the dynamic was the introduction of a partner. In our case, the introduction of a new family member who wasof the closeness that her husband had to his parents, in particular his mother.

There is no other reason for our ES to refuse to have contact with us. If he chooses not too, as an adult that is his choice to make, but that doesn't give him the moral right to deny us our only GC and to deny them loving GP's.

In a case such as ours, the children are being used as weapons. I have an email from our ES before the final cut out in which he states "we will never stop you from seeing ..... because we know how much you love him". Unless you wish to cause pain by denying your parents their GC, why else would you do so? He didn't need to spend time with us. We'd had some contact with our GC until he was 8 months old, enough for him to know us and feel comfortable if left alone with us, which until we were refused any contact, he had been. We could have arranged to see our GC without him being in attendance.

I don't know if he made his decision lightly but I do know that he has no genuine explanation for his behaviour, hence all the lies. He could have told us he was sorry but couldn't see us anymore for the sake of his marriage. God knows that would have been hard enough to live with but better than the deafening silences only ever broken with cruel and vindictive emails.

As I've said, I don't know if his decision was made lightly but I suspect he hadn't thought it through. Several months ago he turned up at his GM's, my m.i.l.'s house having not had contact with her for at least 18 months.

Their second child had been born about a year prior to that visit and he told his GM that they hadn't had a decent night's sleep for 5 years because of a lack of family support.

Well a family that's been cut out is hardly in a position to give any support is it. He was with her for 4 hours. I don't know what else was said and frankly don't want to know.
He hasn't contacted her since and having more than likely left her feeling that she may see him again and her GGC, one who she's never seen, it would probably have been better if he'd not gone at all.

For some estranged AC it's a necessity, for others it appears to be a rather cruel game and the children are the pawns.

The OP has indicated that it wasn't just unsolicited advice that was a problem. She was not content to see the family once or twice a month and took it upon herself to show up unannounced. She also told them that she had "rights" and is insisting on contact when she knows (or at least suspects) that it's not well received. That indicates to me that she's not willing go respect her adult son's boundaries. That's harassment, regardless of her status as "family". She has also indicated that when her son and DIL moved without telling her she took it upon herself to find out their address. She doesn't have a right to their private information, any more than she would have a right to her adult son's medical records. It seems that this is all about her.

yogagirl I completely agree, it was my dil willingness to keep allowing contact that meant I not only maintained my relationship with dgs, but was able to rebuild my relationship with her.

However I’m not sure it would benefit this OP, who has already complained in an earlier post that when she was having contact once or twice a month it wasn’t enough, in fact stating that originally she was only seeing them twice a week. Only twice a week?

Access, even minimal once a month access would also require both sides to compromise. The ds and dil to allow it, and the OP to respect their wishes. Given that OP has already declared that she will not stop giving the unwanted advice (despite being asked to) and expressed her frustration that the dil “wouldn’t just let me do things my way” this seems unlikely.

It also seems that a disproprtionate amount of blame is been placed on the dil, the OP has herself acknowledged that she and her son haven’t seen eye to eye ‘his whole life’, leading me to think that the dil is only a minor factor in the problems.

I wonder if bridges could better be built if the OP first focused first on her relationship with her son?

Once this relationship is healed (and hopefully it will be) both sides need to have a proper conversation about expectations. It seems that a huge part of this issue comes from the OP (understandably) hoping to be a lot more involved that her ds and dil are wanting.

I suppose a lot of it comes down to how you handle differences of opinion and conflict. The person who I believe has been unfairly treated by her son was dropped after a very specific argument. Funnily enough I had exactly the same argument with my own mother two weeks ago. Details were different but the underlying argument was the same. My ‘side’ in the argument is the same as the son (who stopped contact with his mother following the disagreement). In our case I know what my mother thinks, I was furious at the time, I think she is wrong. She no doubt thinks I am wrong. However, she is still helping me out with the issue despite disagreeing with me and I am not asking for her blessing.

I suppose we have the ability to agree to disagree. In many of the estrangements I see one person just can not tolerate others having different opinions and maybe the other person gets to the stage where they can’t listen to it anymore or they can’t tolerate it anymore. Sometimes it may be the partner who can’t tolerate it any more.

A person's address is not private information agnurse, if it were the OP wouldn't so easily have found out what her son's new address was. It's hardly the same as being able to view another's medical records.

That's a good point SpanielNanny about the focus being on the OP's relationship with her son but of course that's not going to be easy if he wont have any contact with her. Seems odd that he tells his mother he loves her and yet his estrangement with her, never mind her estrangement from her GC, continues.

What you've posted Nezumi is an example of how adult relationships should be handled. Your friend's son has ceased contact with his mother because of a disagreement and you and your mother, having had a very similar one, have agreed to differ.

It's also an example of the petty and small minded reasoning behind some estrangements.

Very true smileless2012 it appears the relationship between mother and son is much more complicated than could possibly be explained over a few posts on a forum.

Maybe if the OP completely took the focus off seeing her grandchildren (I know that would be incredibly difficult) the relationship between the two of them would be easier to work on? Perhaps the son would be willing to discuss that instead of the children.

I also so wonder if the OPs dislike for her dil is difficult for her son to handle? My own dm never liked my ds’ father (it did turn out she was right in the end) however, she struggled to hide it and it did make mine and hers relationship very difficult throughout our 10 year marriage. There was a time when I loved him a lot, and used to avoid seeing my dm so that I didn’t have to listen to her constantly speak badly about him.

Not saying any of this is definitely true of the OPs situation, but wondering if it would help.

Maggiemay so sorry you never knew your maternal GP & family. My s.i.l without doubt would have destroyed all photos of us. When he 'got rid' of my DD, he also got rid of all the pictures in the house of her, her with the children, or with him & the children, all gone! She pointed this out to me, in the few weeks of that ticking clock of my 'cut out', I, to this day, don't know what happened to them, don't know if the were destroyed permanently or put back from their hidden place. So if he had got his way, the children wouldn't even have a picture of their mother!!

When we went to court for my visitation rights, I took with me pictures of my GD's birth in an envelope to hand to my D, but she refused them! . So my GD has no record of her birth or early years

Ditto your first half of post 11.46 *Smileless, and without doubt it's a cruel game played by my s.i.l, but he has not only damaged us, he has also damaged both children, especially my GD that is not his child.

Nurse I think the OP, probably didn't paint the picture as it was, all round. It's very hard to do this and on here it's taken me 5yrs to paint the whole picture, yet still I find myself giving more of the puzzle. We estranged grandmothers understand between the lines, understand the unwritten word of a grieving grandmother, we understand the all consuming pain & we understand it's not possible to paint the picture in it's entirety, but we see the picture

As a grandmother myself (luckily not estranged) I actually can see from what you have written why your son and DIL have gone NC with you. I am not sure if you mean to come across this way but there is a lot of talk in how you are going to offer advice (even unsolicited) and making comments about your DIL regarding her mental health. I would have to say I would think long and hard about you having contact with my children if I were your DIL or son too.

You have no automatic rights as a grandparent and things are done so differently now that I think it is wise to take a step back and not advise unless asked for it or certainly not proffer it with the assumption your advice will be taken. I have just found it best to offer help, be constructive with advice (non critical) and respect their own privacy as a new family.

Regarding the bible verses, that would send me into a flaming rage so I am glad others have said the same. I am not religious and think people who push religion down your throat are to be avoided at all costs. Even practising Christians I think would be enraged to be sent verses effectively accusing them of being bad people. What were you hoping to achieve by that?