How long can this go on

Ziggy62 I'm so sorry to hear of the terrible distress you have been through and I admire you for making such brave decision. I have a friend who has also just had to break contact with his mother because she was causing such distress in his marriage and about his toddler son. Some kinds of personality disordered people do not think anything is wrong with them - they just make everyone around them ill! You sum it up so well when you say "*No matter what we say or do we cannot change the way other humans behave, we can only change the way we react to the behaviour.*"
That is why when I first replied to the Original Post, I said I thought she might not like what I had to say. I said she may need to step back and keep away from the situation. If her daughter who is causing such horrendous distress does have this kind of personality then she is unlikely to change. I have a daughter who has given me heart-ache and fear and has been impossible to live with and now is so frightening to deal with, also I get so upset at the way she bullies her so gorgeous little boy. I know she will never change. She has been consistently demanding and selfish and horrible to me from day one. I know almost all scientists in the nature-nurture debate will say nurture has to play a big part, but she was like she is now right from the day she was born. It is the same with her sisters who, generally, are not upsetting and distressing people to be with.
I find that even when people say they will stop being unkind etc. no matter what they promise about not doing horrible things again, and however much I try to carry on as if the relationship is OK now and normal, something has gone, it is too late, that essential trust has been broken. This has happened with me and I am extremely wary of the AC concerned.
I think our best support comes from our friends. Although I was not in the awful situation you were/are in, I too had a very emotionally abusive mother. It seemed to get worse as I was an adult as I found it so inconceivable that she thought it was ok to be so cruel. I did not stop contact with her because of my dear dad whom I tried to protect from her.
There are such awful troubles and unhappinesses in families, it only takes one difficult and cruel person to cause the problems.
I am sorry you have sad days. I'd say, if possible, don't look back, you did the right thing, the healthy thing. You are in charge of your life and you set your boundaries regarding how you should be treated. I saw a good video on YouTube by Stephanie Lyn about Boundaries*. It made me realise I did not have good boundaries for a long time. I let people say and do horrible things to me without saying I didn't like it, let alone saying no. Some one said to me "If you behave like a doormat, don't be surprised if people walk all over you!" The family members who put you under constant stress clearly did not care about you or respect you or they would have seen that you were under stress. They are probably narcissists, most of the people causing the trouble in families have traits of this kind. No ability or desire to empathise with anyone and simply using others to meet their own ends. This, with all sorts of evil lying, gas-lighting, bullying, power and control games and so on. In other words, they are abusers. You have chosen not to be abused any more! I admire you! (that's the nearest I can get to giving you a crown!)
*How to set BOUNDARIES with a Toxic Person!
youtu.be/upRc-R0uhh8

Ziggy62 Huh! My ** round the quotation from you haven't bold-ed it up! Sorry!

crazyH There seems to be a consensus among some social psychologists that there is a huge rise in Narcissism and that society itself has become Narcissistic. This is the unhealthy Narcissism. In fact in Psych it should all be unhealthy but you do get people saying a little bit of narcissism is necessary. I'd say it isn't. A little bit of self-respect is a good thing, probably very important. Narcissism is selfishness to the cost of others and society.

I agree about young people, I have seen and heard so many things we would never have said to our parents or done. I think a bit of this happens in every generation but apparently there has been a huge jump and a wider gap between us and the younger generation than previously. Certainly there is very little respect and it is not considered wrong to espouse many cliches about old people "always saying, 'I'm 80 you know'" and "smelling of cat-food". I definitely have been very shocked by the rudeness of my own family towards me, the ignorance in the way the young men speak to me dumbfounds me! They assume I don't know anything and then get a shock when I know more than they do.

I do not think that we would have dared to engage in the kind of distressing behaviour that Namsnanny has had to endure. I do believe this is a sign of a narcissistic young society.

Luzdoh. You write so beautifully and make it so easy to understand. I agree with every word you have wrote.

'A little bit of self-respect is a good thing, probably very important. Narcissism is selfishness to the cost of others and society.'

I can't agree with you more. These few lines alone have really resonated with me. DH tried his hardest to keep her happy at the expensive of himself and me really. It was so difficult for him and what a horrible position she put him in. The situation escalated because she couldn't get her own way, that's all she cared about. Her way or no way, didn't matter at what cost.

Luzdoh.....as you say, we must all retain our self-respect, but the danger lies when self respect edges towards narcissism. Why are we turning into a narcissistic society? Where did it all go wrong?
I have 3 adult children, and sadly, two of them are downright narcissists. This behaviour has been passed down to their children...I have 2 d.i.ls, roughly the same age, but by God, one of them is a Narcissist, if ever there was one. The other is a sweet, loving, respectful girl.
So, is Narcissism. the fashionable word for 'atrocious behaviour', spawned by 'bad parenting' , 'bad schooling' 'bad company'.......i know very little about the human psyche, so in my own simplistic way, I ask...is it nature or nurture ? ?

but apparently there has been a huge jump and a wider gap between us and the younger generation than previously.

Sorry but what evidence do you have for this?

We cannot write off a whole generation. Young people do some marvelous things.

I'm very late 20s as is my DH.
His mother is mid 40s but her behaviour has always been like that.
Are people born with it? Is it learnt behaviour? DH is nothing like her. He's more like his Gran who pretty much raised him.
Personally, I don't think it's a generation thing. I don't really know what it is.

Perhaps I’m totally ‘thick’ but I don’t really understand all of these acronyms. I look at many posts and, equally there are many posts that I really can’t understand!

Is it so difficult for people to write full, understandable English?

I albsolutely love all of the new technology but I really deplore the flimsy, sketchy attempts at ‘modern ‘ English. I don’t think I’m alone in this either!

Violet and JanT8....My use of acronyms on this thread has really thrown a stick in the works for some, so no you are not alone!
Once again I apologise
But if you read some of the replies before yours you will get some helpful explanations!
In my defence I can say I wanted to be very careful to ensure my family member was as anonymous as I could make them.
My wish was to explain my situation without jeopardising my AC ( Adult Child).
Unfortunately, its caused undue fuss!
I hope my explanation helps!!

Luzdo have you read any of Oliver James books?

They deal with family dynamics and the nature nurture debate.

I found them fascinating. All about passing on family traits, or how not to, as the case may be.

Violetfloss..The same author has explanations for certain types of personality rising in certain types of societies.

I buy his theories but still didn't stop me from making mistakes in my own family, otherwise I'm guessing I wouldn't be in this mess now!

Thank you Namsnanny I will have a look.

I find it difficult to think they are passed down or traits picked up.

DH didn't have a very good childhood, both of his parents were not really up the parenting lark. His Father was violent and his Mother emotionally abused him. In theory he must follow or pick up some traits of theirs, but he didn't.
He's nothing like either of them.

So that theory for me doesn't hold out. I have no clue what makes these people the way they are but they are all very similar. They seem to follow the same list of rules. Very entitled, selfish, lie, manipulate, threaten, sulk when they can't get their own way, very money orientated, likes to be seen as the 'Good guy', their way or no way, can't take any criticism, nothing is ever their fault it's always someone else's, never apologies. These people come in all shapes and sizes and ages. You will drive yourself mad trying to figure them out.

DH and I both had counselling and it helped SO much. Just talking about it and ways to deal with that type of behaviour. I would recommend it to anyone who is dealing with people like that.

Take care

I feel I am not the best parent in the world. I think it’s because I never felt loved by my own parents but not sure ?i have reflected and realised I am a people pleaser and always wanted to be liked by parents and anyone. It’s the same now. I have AC and GC. The relationship with my D had always been fractious. She is headstrong and holds lots of anger. I have tried to be a better parent and GP as wanted to be better than my own parents were with me. I find it a struggle at times with her. Love and enjoy my GC butjust firshort periods. Is that normal ? I want to be me. Is that selfish? It feels like it is and I feel guilt. Went to hospital recently and was very hurt my D forgot to wish me well. I feel I do a lot for her and the family and don’t want praise but this really hurt me as don’t feel valued or respected by many people in my life including husband. Can think of only one person I could go to for support and that’s among friends and family. Just feel I’m not valued enough. No one knows how I really feel. I did say D I thought a text would have been nice and she said she forgot but I think me going into hospital was something she should remember. That’s what hurt. Sorry if this sounds selfish but as I’m getting older I’m finding the real me and think if someone isn’t nice or respectful towards me I don’t want them in my life.

Nams, I just want to express my support and sympathy.

I am in a similar situation with my adult daughter. We used to be very close, but became more and more distant, until she cut us off entirely for 6 months. We are back in touch, sporadically, but we haven't seen her for over a year and I feel that it is all hanging by a thread.

I know what agony it can be, the uncertainty and questioning yourself, the sleepless nights and the feelings of worthlessness and failure.

I have also benefitted from counselling, and have over time adjusted. I have mourned what I had, although I don't give up hope of having a close relationship again in the future. In my case, I believe the change to have been caused by a controlling partner. She also lives hundreds of miles away now, with him, and I feel that he wants to try to control me through her. It is all desperately sad, as she hasn't seen anyone else in the family either. She has not spoken to her sister for two years after her boyfriend insulted her sister after being a guest at her graduation dinner. My second daughter was so very hurt and I feel that my family has been fractured.

But what can you do but carry on? What I would say is don't let the rift with one child damage your relationships with the others. I got upset at a memorable family event because my eldest daughter was absent, which upset the family member whose occasion it was, because they felt that my absent daughter had tainted a special occasion, even though she wasn't there. You need to embrace what you have and, however, hard, do try to step back a little - I was becoming quite depressed, which didn't solve anything. I was just driving myself mad with anger and pain, and to no avail, and it wasn't fair on my husband either, as I was so consumed by it all, there was no emotional energy left for him.

Good luck!

Thanks Ziggy. You give me hope

Blimey violet floss, you describe my mother.

Winnielno one is perfect. All parents are imperfect and the majority do their best for their imperfect children.

Relationships are about love, not about being perfect. They need forgiveness, patience, trust and understanding. Sometimes compromises are needed. Relationships are 'living things', they have to be fed, watered and nurtured not just to grow, but in order to survive.

As much as you love your AC, you simply can't sustain a relationship with anyone who doesn't recognize the importance of, and embrace all of the things that are needed to make a relationship work.

sensible words xx

Oldbatty Exactly! Unless you're my husband or he has a secret sibling all these type of people follow the same traits. It's incredibly interesting but so very sad at the same time.

oldbatty Good question!
I get it from the psychology text books and the psychologists I still meet who talk about research in the field. There was a lot of debate about whether it was appearing to have become more widespread simply because we are better at identifying it (the same debate happened with dyslexia) or whether there is an actual rise in it. Sadly an actual rise seems to be the truth. TV, Pop and Screen stars, "The Real Housewives" all giving the "I want it all and I want it now!" attitude. Also Teachers having a much tougher time with pupils being disrespectful. The attitude of "I am entitled to ..." was measured in a study. It is very strong, taken in cohorts of ten year groups, older people said they expect to work for what they have far more than younger people said it! Also older people came out with expecting to be famous for doing or achieving something at a special level, younger people were on the side of being famous "for being me".

The diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which is Narcissism in its extreme form, has specific criteria from which the diagnosis is made. There are many criteria, such as "Has a grandiose sense of self-importance" and "Believes that he or she is “special” and "Lacks empathy" and "interpersonally exploitative" and "Has a sense of entitlement". Plus many more. To be diagnosed of any personality disorder though, a whole set of separate criteria has to be met before the specific disorder's set of criteria is looked at.
We are not saying though, that Narcissism in society or in general has risen to pathological levels, but that traits of Narcissism are much higher today than they were in previous generations. There has been research into this, forgive me, I can't go and find it now (time constraints) but I can find at least one book before I post this message.

I promise that I do not make any statements without having the evidence to back them up.
If I just feel as if something is a certain way I make it clear that I am only giving my own feelings on the matter.
Regarding Narcissism, I have been doing some voluntary work on the subject, both with research and with people affected by it. This is why I made the comment.

Diagnosis of Narcissists is not that common as a direct diagnosis because Narcissists do not turn up at the clinic! Why should they? They think they are wonderful! - Better than everyone else in fact! The phrase "they act as if the world owes them a living" is quite apt. I did know one who went to his GP and said "I appear to be having trouble with relationships". He was sent to counselling. The Counsellor gave him the unproven (actually research has disproved it) theory that his condition was because his father was distant with him when he was a small boy. Seizing this reason for being special and for demanding special treatment, the Narcissist (who had not been told the name of his diagnosis) said he would take his own treatment from there and stopped going!
There are many kinds as well, not all Narcissists are loud and boastful. Some, known as "Covert" can seem introverted and shy, but none the less will treat people secretly in the meanest and cruelest of ways - usually the victim is their wife/husband and often that person suffers terrible depression and a breakdown. In public they will put on an act and seem to be a pillar of the community or "that nice man/lady". There are millions of people in the world suffering, at home, work, school... because of the cruel and insidious ways narcissists work. If you google "bullying, controlling behaviour" you will get a lot of Narcissism information pop up.

Seeing the suffering and how hard it was for victims to get help was what made me devote my time to trying to understand this terrible problem and to help people not become victims. Victims are usually lovely, kind, generous, compliant, understanding people who never put themselves first. They get sucked in by a con-trick story, because these people are fantastic liars, and think they are helping the person. Then the narcissist turns on them and breaks them down, denigrating them, treating them like dirt, being incredibly selfish. There is a massive amount of information on the web, but not all exactly accurate. On YouTube, you could watch Dr Craig Malkin. I wouldn't just type in "Narcissism" because you will get a landslide containing the good and the very bad not to mention the ugly!
The book is "The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement" by by Jean M Twenge, PhD and W. Keith Campbell, PhD first printed 2009. available from Amazon.
For info on research you could try googling it! Most research is on a medical or Psychiatry/psychology library though, needing membership.
Good luck and thanks for a very relevant question.

Winnie1 I am so sorry you have been treated so badly all your life and the people nearest to you have taken advantage of you!
You are a very typical case of a lovely, kind and caring person who has been eaten up by selfish "all about me" people. Sadly I have to say, these people, your family, are unlikely to change having abused you for so long. They have been treating you like this for a life-time and think it's ok. They will resent that you have changed and are asking them to treat you as a human being and not a door-mat.

I honestly think the way forward is to find friends of your own; like minded and unselfish people. If you have a shared interest it is always a good introduction. For moral support I like some of the YouTube videos on how to look after yourself when faced by bullies/selfish people. This is about setting boundaries. I did not set boundaries in the past. I did not value myself enough. As we grow older, needing medical help more, we realise we have to look after ourselves and can no longer let other people drain us, leaching from us like parasites.

I mentioned previously, I found Stephanie Lyn on YouTube talking about Boundaries, very useful (two videos, possibly others, about Boundaries, then many more of great help. All not too long). Dana is good too and the one I mentioned above, Dr Craig Malkin. They are all Americans but I think they are more in tune with disseminating help of this kind via videos than we are in UK. Sadly on YouTube, there are some bad ones and one is a male from UK. However, I am sure you will find the resources to support you as you learn to value yourself, set your boundaries and insist that people keep them.

You are not alone. Our generation is filled with women who were taught to put ourselves last and who feel guilty saying no. We shall all stick together and support each other. Your health, physical and mental, and happiness are of prime importance.
Lots of love L

crazyH I've got to be quick here - sorry!

Like all of us you are trying desperately to work out where undesirable/horrible behaviour comes from.

If only I knew! Sorry I do not have the answer.

Most Psychchologists and psychiatrists I know seem to imply that traits of Narcissism are "learned behaviour" in psych parlance but this doesn't mean directly learned. There are theories of the reason a person is Narcissistic. You can google them but I would take them carefully because at least two recent pieces of research found them not to be true.

If one child in a family is selfish and another is not but parents treated them pretty much the same why is this? I think there's a bit too much emphasis on nurture but it is a very interesting topic.

The reason I steer clear of it when confronted with a difficult child, is because it gives good parents terrible heart-ache and guilt. We all know lovely people who are good parents but have a child who behaves badly. We all know bad parents who have ghastly kids. What can I say? All we can do is our best! People who write here, by definition, are people who care and want to do the right thing. You are all good people. I get so upset when the "nurture" part becomes a "blame the parent" argument, however subtly. Of course none of us is perfect but that (provided it's not extreme) in itself is a good thing!

Please don't agonise too much, you will make yourselves unhappy. We know children are different from each other, some are difficult and some people do grow up to be very difficult. The influence of school, society, fashion all that stuff plays a huge part. But then, if that influence were to be so strong one would expect more or less everyone to be remarkably similar. They are not.

But I still feel , and it's my own opinion, that we are born with our own nature and this is a very strong part of us. You can see it in families and generations. People doing ancestry research find ancestors with interests like their own. Our nature is given us and remains part of us and is affected by what happens to us, what we learn, see, feel and do.

I really wish I could give a nice clear answer! The trouble is, at this time nobody really knows!

But PLEASE do not agonise and worry that you somehow did something that made your offspring become selfish and unpleasant (if this is the case). As I explained above, the research seems to show that the way society is today has changed each generation or cohort over each ten years, gradually making a shift towards a more "me-centred" outlook. That's in America and Western Europe. But in an individual family, who can say? The individual differences will be greater (within each cohort) than the between generation differences if you follow me.

I forgot to say to OldBatty, I never" write off a whole generation." I was hurt that she made this assumption. It is not at all what came out of the research and not at all what I said. To report research is simply that, not to make decisions about "writing off" . Also, clearly it is not "the whole" generation! Please try to avoid sweeping statements, they are rarely the truth. I too am a fervent supporter of the many wonderful young people in our world. Only recently I posted a sharp criticism on a YouTube of Jordan Peterson's total denigration of students. The students I taught were and are wonderful people.

reading post by Luzdoh made me smile. My mother (who as mentioned I no longer have contact with) became worse after the death of my lovely father . She apparently went for counselling but was told after a few months they could do no more for her. I found a private psychiatrist ( who also had a NHS clinic and was well respected in the area). My mother complained that since losing my father the local villagers never invited her round for lunch/dinner/drinks etc. It was suggested she invited friends to hers. Her reply "why should I?". That was on the first visit, she never returned and shortly after that incident I gave up

Ziggy62 That's sooo like my mother! (which incidentally being a much older generation shows there certainly were some selfish people around in latter years!)

Mine would always say "You are so lucky you can do/have ..... whatever" I used to say something kind until she said, "You're so lucky you can get to a choir, no one gives me a lift." Her bus stop was 50 yards from the house, the choir a 5 min bus journey, the venue next to the bust stop on arrival. I had moved house, did not know the area, lived in a remote village, 7 months pregnant, had walked about half a mile to the little creepy train station, couldn't find the hall for the choir the first time as it was so far up a long hill. So was too late for my audition. I did the same journey the next week and then became a member for about 20 years. During which time I had to hear how lucky I was....
I can't believe how many of us there are! Yet with my association with the small bit of research and so on that I do regarding abusive relationships (which are nearly all blighted by the traits of narcissism) I suppose I should have known.
I have to relate what a lovely friend said to me. He happens to be a middle aged gay-guy in a very steady and very long-term relationship. He came to collect my dogs for me as I was about to do my duty and go to the Children and Grand children for Christmas. I was feeling ill but had to go as I can only not go if I am a) dead b) unable to get out of bed. I said in jest "Why can't you be one of my children then I can come to you?" Immediately he said "If I were one of your children I wouldn't be like I am. I'd be .... um .. errr I'd be... errr" I had to say "Spoilt?" for him! He said 'Well something like that ... I mean, well really you are too nice to them, look at you now, I can see you are ill you should be in bed!"
It really did make me think. I did spoil them. But then, the one who is the most difficult had a father (who was terrible) who committed suicide when she was 8, so naturally I was a bit too soft.
You know, I used to say (and this you don't find in a psychology book!) It's always as if "The mother's place is in the wrong!"

I made it sound as if my children had different fathers. I was only married once. My Children all had the same father but were born with age gaps of 4 and 8 years. Their father was a "covert narcissist" but at the time I had no idea what was going on. I realised this about him most forcibly recently when I saw a video on YouTube by Dr Craig Malkin. If you are waiting for Counselling or can't get to it, then there are some good people and groups on You Tube but do be very careful. I know you all know this so please forgive me saying the obvious! I found it really helpful to learn about the behaviour of the 3 most difficult people in my life. It made me feel a lot better to realise that there were other people like them and that I was not alone. One thing a narcissist partner does is to isolate his/her wife/husband from their friends and family.

"bust stop"? ooh! bus stop methinks