Support for all who are living with estrangement

Looking for advice/opinions:
When I retired my plan was to take a course on counseling and maybe be self employed.
My D had just had her wee daughter a couple of weeks before my retirement.
Unfortunately just a few weeks later there was an unfortunate accident regarding the baby... my son-in-law was holding her in his arms just as the washing machine broke down and flooded the kitchen floor? He bent down to dry the floor but accidentally caused the baby to have some sort of injury that caused her pain.
She was taken to hospital where all hell let loose. Social Welfare,
doctors, police everywhere. In short my D and SIl were being accused of child abuse.
They went through hell with threats of getting the baby plus the other daughter being taken from them.
My D was ill with everything that was going on it broke my heart to watch her go through this nightmare.
Obviously any thoughts of my counseling course we're quickly forgotten as they needed all the help and support I could give them? In order to be able to pay lawyers fees etc I offered to look after the children to save nursery childminders. When everything settled down and it was proved it was an accident which was quite a while later I no longer had the money for my course.
In the meantime my D decides to study for a degree which was related to her job. Again I offer to help with the children to enable her to do the intence study which was required for this qualification.
The childminding was no easy task my wee GD was quite difficult to deal with she had terrible tantrums daily. When you dressed her if it wasn't pink hell mend you... constant battles which were quite draining mentally and physically. Manys a time my hand hovered over the phone to tell my D to come home I had had enough. But I couldn't do that to her.
So what was a so called short term arrangement became eleven years. My life was not my own anything I did had to be worked around taking GC to school pickup from school drop them off at various activities among all the things that need done for active children.
All this done for not a penny... although I was taken out for lunch regularly and was given really nice gifts at Christmas and birthdays.
The wee terror has turned out to be the most gorgeous wee girl and now when I look at her I think "it was worth it"
Her big sister was a dream to look after such a placid wee girl also turned out a gorgeous girl.
Well after all that, the reason I am looking for advice/opinions is ... 6 months ago my Dand I fell out over something really stupid? This is the first time have fallen out for so long we have been as close as you can be with your D we were there for each other through thick and thin.
We were on our way to lunch with my D,GD, and GDs boyfriend.
I have sciatica and not able to walk very quickly ... because it was raining they all ran in front of me with no regards as to how or even where I was. So as a wee joke I hid behind a wall just to see their reaction. Ok they did come looking for me.
We had been in the restaurant a wee while had a bit of a chat but I felt a tension in the conversation. Asked my D was she ok and her response took me aback. No she said "I don't appreciate your childish behaviour hiding behind walls" I said well I was trying to tell you in a humorous way how I felt about trying to keep up with you all.
Anyway this transpires to her telling members of the family that my behaviour was "appalling" and how selfish I was and everything was about me me me.
Well needless to say this sent me into a rage like never before. .. I felt betrayed...her attitude was very hostile.. I had no idea where this was coming from. Bearing in mind she keeps using this expression "that's me I'm done" which frightens the life out of me for the reason people have walked out of my life for no good reason. (But that's another story)
Anyway Christmas came and went and no contact which I found very hurtful never ever in her life did she not have the best Christmas I could give her.
So a couple of weeks ago I sent her a text to see if we could meet to have a chat ... although it took her a few days to reply she did agree. But no contact since then... I get the feeling she wants me to grovel.
I'm not sure what to do now I think I've done all I can do.
I just do not understand how someone you love so much and whom I thought was my life can hurt me so much.
I have had to get counseling for the effect this has had on me. I actually considered suicide at one time.
Hope I haven't bored everyone with this long tale of woe. But maybe there is someone out there who can help me understand what is going on its all too much for me to grasp.

Text again and suggest a place to meet and ask her for times that would suit her. Fit in with one of her ties. In the text say that you have missed her and the family dreadfully and are looking forward to seeing her.

If there have truly not been problems between you previously then I think you are both in great danger of allowing a mutual stubbornness to create a major war from which you will all lose out. If there have been other problems between you, then the reasons for your daughters choices may be different.

If possible do everything to talk with your daughter, it gets worse with time. Apologise give the incident and say it was a silly thing to do. My daughter cut me out of their lives but I found out after many years, that most family were. For some reason she doesn't like me, I can't alter that, I think she is ashamed of me. I doubt your daughter feels that about you, that silly incident was obviously the straw that broke the same the camels back and needs sorting, however you might get upset about what she says but things can get sorted and move on. Just contract her. Good luck.

Welcome youngisabel it beggars belief that having given so much of yourself to help your D, she can treat you in this way.

You hid behind a wall well not exactly the crime of the century was it. You explained why and her response should have been an acceptance of their thoughtlessness for not keeping pace with you. That could have and should have been an end to it.

IMO to make no contact with you over Christmas because of the incident you have relayed to us is a gross over reaction, totally un necessary and very cruel.

I do not agree with Madgran that there is mutual stubbornness here. Despite your hurt and confusion about receiving no contact over Christmas, you sent your D a text and met up with her. It is not unreasonable for you now to wait to see if she get in touch with you.

It's not just her reaction to what's happened that's an issue, it's also what she's been saying about you to other family members.

I don't agree with Luckylegs that you should apologise for hiding behind a wall. IMO her behaviour has nothing to do with that incident. There must be more to it but you're her mother, not a mind reader therefore if there are underlying issues, she needs to be adult enough to talk to you about them.

"I just do not understand how someone you love so much and whom I thought was my life can hurt me so much"; something that none of us estranged parents can understand.

When you met, was the incident and no contact over Christmas discussed? You say you feel she wants you to grovel but why should you.

Luckylegs is right, you may be upset by what she says but then again, she may feel the same about what you have to say. A mutually respectful and honest conversation is what's needed here, not a grovelling mother.

Good luck.

Thanks everyone it's good to get different opinions on this issue.
Smileless when we met we discussed some of what went on that day but then she said "ok I don't want to talk about that day it was a horrible day don't you agree" well yes I agreed, it was a horrible day. No Christmas was not discussed I was getting too emotional and I didn't want to embarass myself by bubbling in a public place so just moved on. It was actually quite a pleasant meeting in the end. But she does not contact me at all now that is why I think she wants me to grovel. I have recently sent a text asking if we could me for lunch when she has the time. the reply was "Yes that'll be nice" so maybe we will be able to move on through time.
Once again thanks everyone. I find that people who have been through similar experiences understand where you are coming from therefore give great opinions and you realise you are not alone Much better than counselling.

Can anyone tell me where I find out what all the abbreviations mean.

Hello youngisabel I have read your post and all the replies which are great advice. I would just say, don't let this incident "fester", it isn't your fault, you did nothing wrong. However, I know from experience that perhaps a "sorry this happened" may help matters, never mind who is at fault and had a reaction that was unnecessary. It really doesn't matter in the end. I repeat you are not at fault but don't let this ruin your relationship, keep trying. I let something go on for years and together with all the MH issues with my other daughter, it is still not resolved, I wish I had done something sooner. I bitterly regret it now.

Thanks Megan yes you're right it does begin to fester. I have apologised (don't know why) but anything to save the relationship. Sorry about your issues hope they get sorted.

youngisabel - i don't think you should have to apologise at all, but if I was you I would. You are clearly very important to the GC and have had a positive impact on their lives. I would apologise fully (which it looks like you have) and not expect one back. I'm a lurker here, but wanted to post as your situation still seems (hopefully easily) salvageable. I'm in the slightly different situation of having our ILs NC us, like many of the posters before me for very odd/ minimal/ invented reasons.

Thank you Betty good to get such positive feedback.

I think your behaviour really was a bit childish. Yes, it wasn't kind of them to forget you, but you didn't need to hide from them. That's really a rather "tit for tat" kind of behaviour.

It's not clear from your post whether your D has been the driving force behind your lack of contact with other family members or not. If she has not been the driving force, it may be a good idea for you to consider your impact on others. I tend to look at patterns. If a person has been systematically cut off by other members of their family and/or their friends, it suggests to me that the problem might be with the person being cut off, if that many people can't stand them.

if that many people can't stand them agnurse?

What a mean spirited, unhelpful comment that was. How do you know that "many people can't stand" youngisabel? From where, in her post, did you extrapolate that information? Eh? If youngisabel wasn't feeling bad enough before, she will be after that comment.

Yes agnurse it could have come across as childish but rather than moan or get confrontational I try to deal with issues with humour.... unfortunately sometimes it gets taken the wrong way. And yes I agree with you if you are having problems with more than one person chances are you are the common denominator. I have taken that on board and have asked my family to please explain some of the attitude they have towards me. But never get any explanations to which I could understand. In fact I don't get any explanations. And to be honest this issue is only the tip of
the iceberg as far as relationships go.
Out of curiosity agnurse can I ask why you point out I have issues with other family members as I don't think I mentioned problems with others. But you're right there are
I appreciate your candid reply.

Take no notice youngisabel, 'twas ever thus......

Thanks Chewbacca it was a bit presumptuous but I am open to different opinions. (

Always best to offer an opinion that's based on known facts though isn't it youngisabel, rather than a presumption! Don't give it another thought; its utterly valueless.

Youngisabel - Don’t worry, it sounds like normal family stuff. I have friends who have told me similar tales.

There are always similarities ...... I have done so much for them. They don’t appreciate it. They are the centre of my world. I feel so betrayed. I am so hurt.

I used to feel this way too about my only son. Then one day I had an epiphany. I did loads for him, putting my life on the back burner. I did it because I wanted to. I put him and the GCs at the centre of my life ...... but he didn’t want that, he felt I was taking over ..... Things got tricky and I felt like you did. Things were said, on both sides ..... pent up feelings and resentments do tend to spill over eventually.
My advice, and what worked for me, is pull back a bit, get on with your own life and chill. Still send cards on birthdays etc ...... don’t make a drama about it .... just let things settle. Think about your actions and how it makes others feel. I have realised it’s not all about me! I am now doing my best to make a shift in my behaviour. It will be ok in the end, if it’s not ok, it’s not the end! X

Thanks Pythagoras yes I agree the initial hurt and anger has faded somewhat and I'm learning to let go ... getting used to the no contact. But the fact my wee GD comes to visit on her own helps me deal with things better. She's a wee star we have such a lovely time together.

Everyone has the right to be annoying from time to time, and youngisabel's daughter also has the right to be at the end of her tether from time to time. Please don't give youngisabel a hard time as she only seems concerned with making things right from her end and hasn't blamed her daughter at all.

Thanks bettydl absolutely, we all have our flaws no one is perfect.

I like that Pythagoras "It will be OK in the end, if it's not OK, it's not the end".

Chewbacca typical agnurse response; always the parent, never the adult child.

Agnurse - Although I haven’t visited this board as many times as many, I can’t help noticing that your replies are, let’s say, blunt, if not harsh!

There may sometimes be some truth in some of the things you say. But delivery is everything. If one is too blunt with people, they will close the shutters. Velvet gloves are essential when giving advice.

People pouring out their hearts are often hurt and upset. They don’t need a further slap in the face! Softly, softly is the way! A drop of honey gathers more flies than a gallon of gall! Just sayin’ ,

You're right Pythagorus. It's especially difficult for those experiencing the pain of estrangement to read insensitive posts from someone with no personal experience of being abandoned by their own child.

Mr. S. and I were talking earlier about when our estrangement started. For those of you who know us, you'll know we've come a long way, a very long way on the road of acceptance and have worked hard to re build our lives.

What struck me was, as happens from time to time, that the intensity of the pain we experienced when we first realised we'd lost our son and only GC, is just as real and traumatic as it was more than 6 years ago.

There's an irony here. We don't remember the pain of child birth. We know it was painful but have no memory of the pain itself. When we're cut out, that pain is as real and vivid as it was however many years ago it happened.

That pain will stay with us for the rest of our lives, regardless of how far down the road of acceptance we get and regardless of how well we rebuild our lives without the child we've lost.

youngisabel I'm glad your meet up with your daughter was at least partially enjoyable. When I referred to "mutual stubborness" in my previous post it was because you referred to your daughter wanting you to grovel so I raised mutual stubborness as a danger rather than as a fact, but may have expressed it badly! Certainly jumping behind walls hardly merits no contact at Christmas ...now that is seriously hurtful behaviour! Your daughter does need to be honest with you about the issues. Hope things improve over time for you

I wonder did anyone see Loose Women and hear the discussion about grandparents not allowed to see their
Grandchildren. The comments made by the singer Gabriel
were eye opening by saying . If I don't get on with them, yes I would keep them away why should they see people I don't like, her children have not been allowed to be themselves, It's all about the control, does it show she loves her children more than others, I don't think do, I think the opposite. I wish this had been discussed years ago but it was a shameful secret then, you had failed as a mother, it is only lately I realised it wasn't me.

Look forward to watching that Luckylegs9 I record all programmes. I was at Lakeside yesterday, having lunch with my sister, so hope to watch tonight and let you know what I think. xx