Support for all who are living with estrangement

When my friend's husband left her, her young daughter, only 12 at that time, used to tell her friends that her father had died. She said that it was easier that way.

Thank you for being here to listen. I am in the uk and half term is coming. It’s Halloween then Bonfire night then Xmas. I just don’t understand why my daughter or anyone that goes no contact can’t see how life changing and damaging these actions are. I have always taken my own mum for granted. We niggle and moan and yes she is irritating. But I would never have done anything like that to my parents. It almost seems to be fashionable to do this. Am I wrong. Smileless your comments make so much sense. Having read through all of the threads, I completely understand all of the grief here and pain and confusion

SouperNan

I don't think it's becoming a "fashionable" thing.

My experience of being on the children's end of estrangement has been that in most cases, that I know of, estrangement occurred for good reasons.

I say most, not all. My sister and BIL have decided to estrange themselves from our family. We do not fully understand the reasons why. There is evidence that my BIL is emotionally abusive to the family and we suspect that this may be why they have gone NC.

I stay out of the situation and simply listen to my parents' concerns.

On the other side of it, we are estranged from FIL who is a narcissist and very toxic. Hubby has made his own decision that he wants minimal, if any, contact with FIL.

I think in many cases, this stems from things such as mismatched expectations. I think back in the day many mothers didn't work, which meant they had more time with their children. Children did fewer activities and spent more time at home. Often weekends were spent visiting grandparents while weekday evenings were "family time".

Today, many families are dual-income. Children are often involved in multiple activities. Consequently people have less time to spend as a family. You also have more divorced couples and blended families. If GPs get a once-a-month visit, for a weekend, they are getting a minimum of 25% of the family time. If it's a divorced parents situation and the children live with a parent EOW, the GPs would be getting 50% of the family time if they were visited one weekend a month.

I think in some of these cases the GPs feel that because their children aren't as close to them as they were to their own parents, they're being "shut out". They may also expect that their children will parent the same way they did, and feel that parents today make "too many rules".

Note that I am not saying that this is true in EVERY case of estrangement. These are simply common threads that I have observed in many posts written by people on both sides of estrangement.

Bottom line: I think that in the majority of cases, parents make decisions based on what they feel is in the best interests of their children. Ultimately, GPs do not have a "right" to have a relationship with their GC. Ideally, GPs would be able to have a relationship with their GC because this is often very positive. However, I do not consider it "child abuse" for the parent to decide that a GP relationship is not positive for the child and to decide that they need to stop contact because that is what they feel is in the child's best interest.

From my own experience and from the experiences of those here on GN who are estranged and the experiences shared on another site of estranged parents and GP's, the majority of cases are not based on parents making decisions on what they feel is in the best interests of their children.

Their decisions are based in anger and spite. They use their children as weapons to inflict pain and suffering because as we all know, GP's have no rights and the parents who behave in this way, simply ignore the rights of their children to know their extended family.

You're not wrong SouperNan it does indeed appear to be fashionable hence the number of sites on the internet advising and encouraging adult children to go no contact.

Many thanks. I will try to get some sleep tonight. I know that I did nothing wrong and was only supportive and I tried. X

I’m sorry SouperNanthat you have to experience this with your daughter. What do you mean that she won’t see you if she was naughty?
I too agree that parents make decisions out of spite and anger because of what they have perceived as evil in their relationships with their parents. This perception should have no bearing on the relationship between GP and GC.
My DH is the only grandfather his grandchildren will know. How mad would any of us be if we grew up to find out that we weren’t allowed a relationship with our GO because of a silly reason . I would be furious at my parents.
My DH and I haven’t a clue why we were cut off almost four years ago. We can only guess. It would be easier had their been an argument. We would at least know why.

Oh I forgot.My son was unreasonable and still won’t see me because he didn’t like his sisters apology. It’s just an excuse. My X and I went to a psychologist who said we are in a tough position and suggested we set him up in an apartment and tell him to get a job. I won’t throw money at a problem and why give money to someone who is t talking to me. I practically begged to see him but he kept blaming my daughter for a fight. He is living with my X and has no job.
I really think he has some mental problems but he won’t get help. Boy my son and stepson were born on the same day and are estranged from us. A coincidence?

Rhinestone - it’s awful isn’t it. My daughter had been ill on and off with depression since the first GD was born so I knew I was treading on egg shells. My first GD looked forward to seeing me, probably to save herself from the sad atmosphere at home. Then my daughter starting telling her she was naughty and bad. She said if she was naughty she wouldn’t not be allowed to see me. That’s why I am worried about what my GD will think. The second GD is just over a year old. Probably walking now. I will never see her either. Her new partner could see that she was ill and she realised it was a repeat pattern from when she split up with the first partner. So she said it was me that was making her sad. I think she lied to save her new partnership. And I know she won’t be happy. She has sold me down the river and my GDs will suffer in the long run. My ex husband (grandad) has stepped in to help. So of course when exes get involved it’s game over. I can’t be bothered to fight

Rhinestone. I read your comments again about your own situation and I am sorry I didn’t ask about how you are feeling. I am trying not to wallow in self pity and make this all about me. You are asking the same questions as myself. What did you do wrong? I think sometimes younger people see examples that others have followed and think it is going to be easier to go no contact and have no outside noise. Maybe they have issues to deal with in the heads. It would be better if they could explain what they are feeling, rather than just putting the shutters down completely. When my mum makes me mad, I just tell her, then buy her a cake and make up!

Soupernan, was it your DD who said you was making her feel sad? If so, did you ask her what you had done?
Or was it her partner?
I absolutely agree with you that there are battles going on inside people's heads that they nees to deal with.

Depression is tricky. She sounds like she's going through a hard time and has distanced herself for the sake of her mental health.

In my my experience no person 'cuts off' another person to punish them, they do it because there's reasons they need to remove themselves.
No one does it for a laugh, it's not enjoyable, they don't sit at home cackling at their genius plan to punish someone.
They are not doing it to control the person, if anything they do it to get some control back as they feel they don't or didn't have have any to begin with, it's self care really.

It's not about you, it's about them and thinking they have done it soley just to hurt you is narrow minded, what about them? What has happened? What are they going through to 'cut off' somone? What the heck has happened for somone to take such drastic steps?

My husband has distanced himself from his mother. He has had no contact with her for years. His mental state is alot better. He's off anti-depressants and has done all his therapy.
She has not helped things at all, she is insistent has done nothing wrong, will not acknowledge his hurt, will not apologies and continues to blame me.
She has not listened to a word he has said.
Her pride seems more important than him, which is a shame.
I am sure she has been hurting but so has he. Her hurt doesn't trump his.

Give her some space for her to get her head straight.

SouperNanSince my story was on the old thread I will just briefly tell you that it’s been almost four years since we have seen my stepsons children. We babysat for the oldest once a week for over theee years. During that time my mother, who is bipolar had a psychotic break each year and we moved my 90 year old in laws here to care for them. My daughter had a baby and we watched her child once a week. This was our retirement the first ten years.... just care taking. We were so stressed out and I was depressed feeling like I had no life because it was all about everyone else but us. We would walk In to my in laws place and I would get a list to go shopping before I had even sat down. My father in law dies at 95 and we tell him we will sit every other week now as they have two other free sitters. Mom gets out of the hospital and we decide to go to Florida for three weeks. But I had to cancel one week because mom needs to see doctors and get settled back home. We go to Florida and decide to add a week on since we cancelled one. We come home and take my stepson , his wife and GC out to dinner. Stepson won’t talk or sit near his dad. He’s mad that we weren’t home for his second sons first birthday . There was no party just cake at their home for two other grandmothers. My DH is the only grandfather. The next day his wife emails me that her children deserve a better grandfather. We wrote back and forth to each other about this but we got no answers. My DH has texted, called, sent a card left a voicemail but nothing ever back. They stopped inviting my daughter to things.
I wonder what the oldest grandchild thinks. We don’t send gifts or cards because we know they wouldn’t tell them the truth about who it was from. So all we can think of is they are mad we stayed later on our vacation. No sympathy or empathy for anyone but themselves. So mean and cruel to do this to parents.

Just wanted to vent.....went to see older son's children today.....had to request it. I am beginning to feel they (mainly d.i.l.) didn't want me there . Her face was like thunder. Son was ok .....spoke a bit. But while I was there, she was getting the kids ready to go to the beach (this weather?) ...I felt so unwanted. I was there for hardly an hour. Just before I left, she said, oh by the way, we won't be joining you for the family Xmas party that you arranged. Son doesn't say a thing.
What hurt most was that my ex husband and his wife are having a Xmas family party 2 days after mine and they are going to that. I feel I want to get away for Xmas, away from it all ... real torture.
I don't know whether being totally NC is better than these visits which only cause more hurt.

It must make you feel so sad CrazyH, what a vile young lady your DIL sounds and shameful of your son to stand by while she is so openly rude to you.
Manners cost nothing and although I didn't particularly like my MIL for very good reasons I will add, letting her son and her grandchildren down on so many occasions, running up dept in my husbands name and the list goes on but I was always polite to her and encouraged a relationship with her GS's.
As I've said before when you marry and begin a family with someone you become part of an extended family, why do it if you have no intention of being involved!? Will be interesting to see how she deals with it as her children grow up and the shoe is on the other foot!

I would be so disappointed in my son if my DIL behaved like this and he stood by and did nothing, of course we have our cross words like any family but we keep in regular contact and I see my little granddaughter every week, I don't want to live in their pockets just to be involved and treated with the same respect I show them.

I don't know what the answer is but maybe your son could bring the GC to visit you? DIL may not want a relationship with you for whatever reason but she should still be putting her children's interest first.

crazyH

Have they been to visit you for Christmas in the past?

There have been many times that I have not been able to see my parents for Christmas. DSD's mum has her for Christmas Eve so we don't have her until Christmas day. Couple that with me being a nurse and Hubby being a security guard and there are years that he has to work. (I now teach nursing but in the past I've had to work Christmas when I did clinical practice.)

It is also possible that they would like to have Christmas day as just their nuclear family. Your ex's party may be occurring at a better time for them. Or they could be visiting DIL's family.

While it is possible that they are not attending as a slight against you, it is also possible that it just doesn't work for them for whatever reason.

Thankyou Jobey and agnurse.
My son works away a lot...he is only home for weekends. At the end of the day, he has to keep his wife happy. I don't know where this hostility has come from. I am a fair mother and grandmother.....the only thing I can think of is that my ex husband 's wife has been dripfeeding her stuff that went on during our marriage, and ofcourse blaming me for the breakup. I can't think why she has turned against me. Yes, we have had our issues, my son and I but he seems to have got over it. Never mind....have to grin and bear it. Thanks for the input xx

Im trying to make sense of all of this and it seems that there are clues in everything peeps are saying here. And something from my younger days. There is a good report on Pschology Today about the subject which says if the estranger is between 20-30 they may sort themselves out in time. I remember when my kids were younger, I really thought my kids and my husbands time was all about me. I hated my PIL for no apparent reason after my kids were born. I felt insecure. I didnt stop the GC from seeing them but i felt threatened by them. This stopped after i got divorced oddly. I always needed my mum n dad though. My daughter is insecure, so although she has whisked my GC off and gone NC, i suspect she is trying to create her own bubble. Not healthy in the long run for the GC or EFam. Maybe this will change as she matures.

crazyhaving only experienced total NC and knowing what you go through and how others suffer with brief visits where they feel unwanted, for me total NC is the better option.

Your d.i.l. could have let you know about the Christmas party by saying "unfortunately" or "I'm sorry but". I agree with Joeby, she seems very unpleasant and as for your son.

Jobey a good post and fine example if how to behave toward your in laws, whether you particularly like them or not.

I agree agnurse that not attending the family party organised by crazy isn't necessarily meant as a slight but so often, it isn't the message itself that causes upset, but the way it's delivered.

At home, trying to keep busy and not worry too much about our little dog who has gone in today for her 'lady op'. Mr. S. and I really are hopeless, driving home in tears and feeling guilty even though we know it's the best thing for her in the long run.

Her brother is missing her as well and the house feels strangely quiet without her charging around with her socks, balls, chews etc.

Smileless, I wish I could get to the point you're at....you seem so relaxed and settled.....one day, I too will. If I remember right, your ES lives near you (like mine), and your other son lives abroad. We all live in the same town........my bad luck. For years, nothing has worked in my favour I'm in a family quagmire and I am being dragged down...a bit dramatic, but that's how I feel.
Hope your little one is recovering well after her "lady op". Where will they stay when you and Mr S go on your holidays?
Agnurse, to answer your question about Xmas. This is how it's been. The week before Xmas, I do a meal for all, well used to, but recently, I have been taking them out to a nice restaurant. Then, 2 days before Xmas all of them go to my ex' house for lunch. On Xmas morning , I go to the said older son's house, take them their gifts, have breakfast with them. They then leave for lunch to d.i.ls parents' house. After that, I go to my younger son's house....my divorced daughter and her kids join us there, so does my d.i.ls parents. They are lovely people who have been blessed with a lovely, kind daughter. Don't get me wrong....she can have her tantrums as well, but I can put with that. The other one literally hates me (I think)

Yes, that's right crazy our son lives in Aus. and our ES 25 miles away. That doesn't sound like much of a distance but as we used to live 15 doors away, believe me it's made all the difference in the world.

I couldn't do what you do. I don't have the patience. I wouldn't be able to allow someone to be rude to me and say nothing. I couldn't walk on egg shells which is why it's better this way.

No contact. No abuse, no lies, no atmosphere, no waiting for plans already made to be altered and no wondering if the next time we see S and or GC will be the last.

My heart goes out to you crazy as does my admiration. I can be relaxed and settled because I've let go, I have nothing to cling on to. You on the other hand still have some contact and in order to keep it, you have to put up with this type of crap, say nothing and hope that you'll see your son and GC again, that the next time wont be the last.

I never got the chance and wouldn't have been very good at it any way, no where near as good as you.

Well the vet they'd ring about 3.30 so as I type perhaps just another 58 minutes to wait. Am I clock watching? You bet I am and have been since 9.30 this morning.

Thanks to the wonderful advice I received from Iam when we first got her, we contacted a trainer for 1 to 1 sessions. He boards dogs but only a couple at a time because they stay in his house. Snuggle up with him and his wife on the settee for cuddles, so a home from for our babies who love him.

I'll come on later and let you know how she's doing providing I can stop cuddling her of course.

She's home. Looking rather sorry for herself and I can't blame her for that but relaxed enough to sleep.

A little chicken for her tea which she thoroughly enjoyed and we're all together at home againand such a relief.

I agree agnurse that not attending the family party organised by crazy isn't necessarily meant as a slight but so often, it isn't the message itself that causes upset, but the way it's delivered

100% this ?

It's not what's said, it's the way it's said. The inflection of voice, the body language and the expression on the face. Unless you're there and see and hear the conversation yourself, you cannot possibly understand or seek to "rationalise" the situation.

Good news Smileless.....glad the little one is back and relaxing. Let her sleep it off- she'll be right as rain in the morning .
Spot on girls.....it's the way it was said and face like thunder......no sorry, we can't make it, no apology, nothing. Let them get on with it. I'm done .....yes, I do have the patience of Job. I am an elastic band, pulled as far as it will go. I can't do right for doing wrong......whatever I do will be criticised, so I may as well do nothing. She wanted my son for herself, her children and her family. So be it.

Thanks for the*crazy*. She's a lot better this morning but of course has a way to go. We have to keep an eye on her at all times so she doesn't try to jump on or off the chairs.

Been there crazy "the way it was said and face like thunder", even when your seeing your son and GC, the underlying hostility eventually wears you down which is maybe why they do it.

As you say Chewbacca there's so much that adds to the words that are spoken and you really have to there to understand.

CrazyH I used to think my feisty DIL could be a handful but she's a blinking pussycat compared to yours! My elastic band would have snapped long ago right in her face ?

Jobey ?- one day it will ?