Mother/Daughter again

Yes, me!
I had depression, she's struggling and seems to be reaching out.
Could you maybe ask her if it might be worth booking in with her GP?

Violetfloss did you seek help? Did it work?
I believe it is a type of post natal depression although on the surface and with her friends she is her old self. It seems to be us, her parents, and me especially who get the full brunt and I find it hurtful.

Yes, that was me! I don't have any grandchildren yet but I well remember those early years and there were no grandparents to help out.

There have been a few episodes of Woman's Hour lately featuring young women having a hard time being mothers. I think the difference now is that they are allowed to admit it. I remember it being completely disallowed.

If she doesn't have any friends nearby, could she find some online, perhaps on Mumsnet. Aren't there any toddler groups where she could at least meet other young mothers. Probably the only cure, as such, is time and a return to work. It probably really helps to have you to talk to and help even if she seems ungrateful and doesn't want you to tell her it'll get better. She can't hear the latter yet, she's too buried in it all. Sorry if this doesn't help much, I do remember those early days and how awful they were.

I did!
Mine was PND too, admitting it was hard because it was seen as weak. I knew I had a beautiful child, great husband, nice life...You know all the normal things..I KNEW I was very lucky which made it worse because my beautiful family wasn't 'enough'
I didn't believe it would get better. Once you are in that dark pit it's so hard to get out but it is possible.

I faked it in front of my friends. Slapped on a smile and had a laugh. I looked happy. Inside I was numb.
My mum and husband saw the 'real' me at that time.

I had CBT which changed my life. Made some changes. There are many things doctors can do these days, tell her to speak to her GP and they will help from there.

What you might do is ask her what she would like to do to fix the issue. Not in a sarcastic way, but in terms of, "It looks as if this is very upsetting. I'm curious to know how the ideal situation would look for you."

It does sound as if she could have PND. I would be cautious about how you approach this as you don't want her to think that you feel she's "crazy". You might say something to the effect of, "You seem to be under a lot of stress lately and I notice that it's negatively affecting your mood. Have you thought about the possibility of speaking to a counsellor? They might be able to provide you with some tips for helping to manage stress." (Some parents, well-meaning or otherwise, can bring up PND and sometimes the mother can interpret it as they think she's "crazy". Obviously that's not how you want it to come across.)

Unfortunately this is a very common issue with people who have clinical depression and it can be very frustrating.

No stress-related issue or PND should ever be left to chance and the best thing to do would be to see a GP with a view to trying a mild anti-depressive medication before the problem manifests itself into something that's going to take longer to act on the nervous system.

Medication will make a difference once given time to get into the system and your daughter will then feel more able to cope.

You don't say how old the children are, but if she is still on Mat Leave then PNI (postnatal illness, which sounds a bit less stigmatising than PN depression) could indeed be a factor. Putting on a good face is all part of it.

From observing my DIL's and my dd, I think motherhood today can be quite a lonely old time. With so many women back at work, there aren't the mutual support structures that existed when mine were young. We had toddler groups, mums & babies, coffee mornings etc.

Some of those still exist but are more likely to be attended by grandparents or nannies and childminders than other mums.

Has your dd considered asking for support from Home Start? I thought they were for families with special needs but a friend now volunteers and she visits parents who are simply struggling a bit with life with small children.

Thanks. Some food for thought. I hadn't actually thought it was PND until I began to write this but it does seem likely or at least not impossible.
I think it could be exhaustion. The DC are 3 and 1 . She has plenty to make her stressed but she is very capable and appears to manage well but seems cross and not relaxed at all.
She takes them out a lot to toddlers, nursery, swimming, friends. She does far more than I ever did.
If I were to suggest she see a counsellor, she would explode. I just don't know how to go about it.

Is she in fact bored or unfulfilled? Small children can be unremitting! I loved being at home with mine but my dd was keen to get back to work as her baby neared a year old. She said her brain was going soft without adult stimulation!

Life managing a 3 year old and a 1 year old alone may well be nightmarish. I had twins and even though I took them out to lots of things, I was often so busy managing them that I didn't get to speak to the other parents.
I think she needs some time off if at all possible. A counsellor might help but how will she find childcare so that she can see him/her? I spent a lot of time at my wit's end and I found the odd solution like, at one point, putting myself down as work experience placement for young women doing childcare courses at the local college. How much help does the DH give, any chance he might be able to take a bit of time to be at home more?

Grammaratto, I'm so sorry to hear about your worry over your daughter.
The hardest thing about PND is admitting you have it. I was sure my DH and my mother were conspiring to have me sectioned. I would not admit that I was in that dark, dark place.
Even to this day, I'm hurt at the way they handled it. My mother was so hard on me and told me to pull myself together. As if I had any control over how I felt. You become so unreasonable.
I was trying to be the perfect mother of three children under five, one who was a chronic asthmatic and had suffered anaphylactic shock twice.
One day I realised that I needed help and saw my GP. It was a long process, but I got there in the end.
I hope you find a way to help your daughter. It's so painful when our children are suffering.?

I know I said we couldn't help with money, but I may see a way to pay for a day care place for even a day a week . Then she could come to the surface and breathe.
Her DH cannot do any more as he works long hours in a low paid job.
She is bored and lonely but doesn't admit it.
It's also winter. I always think this is a hard time of year.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. It helps me.

DD behaves as if she is the only person in the world to have young children and is wallowing in the awfulness of domestic life!

I am sorry to say that this comes across as rather a negative and critical response to your DD's problems and this will not help her at all. Some of your subsequent posts seem more understanding, so I hope that the posts from other Gransnetters might be helping you to let go of that stance.

We are all different and she is clearly finding this hard where perhaps someone else might have sailed through. Whether she has PNI or not, she is struggling and she needs you to be a rock for her, gently giving help where needed; and above all not judging her.

What age are the DCs.
Not everyone loves the young child stage, that doesnt mean they dont love their DCs.
The drudgery of parenting small kids doesnt last long and a LOT of parents only really find their stride once they get out of the toddler stages

I feel so sorry for young mums they seem to have to show they can cope with everything thrown at them instead of relaxing and enjoying their babies.
You are a good mum for supporting your daughter please don;t take her comments to heart she is just using you as a sounding board she knows full well you are an asset and you are helping her,please try gently to get her to talk to her health visitor or Doctor for advice asap.

Luckygirl I realise that my post sounds harsh. I am frustrated by not being able to help. She says she needs help but then instead of being appreciative just grumbles that I/We are not doing enough. She says things like " what do you do all day?"
I will find a way to help her but I don't feel like helping when she is so grumpy with me.
You are right glammanana ofcourse I shouldn't take her comments to heart but it's difficult not to.

Get her to the Gp or health visitor asap.It souuds like she is suffering with PN depression.Having been a victim i know what she is going through. It ruined what should have been the happiest time of my life, plus my family's life!!!

Grammaretto - I do understand how frustrating this must all be for you. You have my sympathy. Wanting to help, but finding it hard to find the right way to do so is very hard. Comments like: " what do you do all day?" must really grate, and it is good you are able to keep helping in the face of this.

When do we stop worrying about our children I wonder? I hope you can find a way of sticking with it - the GC will reap the rewards if you are able to help your DD through this phase.

Grammaretto, I don't think you sound harsh at all, you sound like a mum who is very worried about her daughter.
Have you shared your concerns with your SIL? It needs to be a joint effort, you can't shoulder all this on your own.
Could you possibly take the children away for a few hours to give her a break, or would that be too much to have two wee ones to look after? I know I find it hard physically.
I do hope that your DD gets the help she needs. However, you also have to look after your own health too.

Please , please ask her to see her GP, my elder daughter had post natal depression after their third baby, she thought she could deal with it herself, she couldn’t .

They live 3 hours drive away from us so I can't pop in. The wee one is still breastfed so I can't take them just yet. We'll see them at Christmas and perhaps something can be sorted out.
DH spoke to her today and told her we were thinking of her.
Marydoll thanks for your sympathy and Anniebach I will try to get her to see the doctor.

My DD had post natal depression a year after having our first GC. It sounds as though you are helping in a way which is great but she needs to go to the Drs to have a chat. It sounds as though she is running on a low battery and just needs some help to get going again and medication will just give her a boost
Encourage to go xx

Mothers don't necessarily want to solve their difficulties with small children by going back to work, especially if at the end of it they spend out so much on childcare that it is hardly worth doing moneywise. All that means us you are knackered with the job and you will need to fit in all the domestic chores and somewhere in there a relationship with 2 little children.
I'm sorry to say that what you say is not helpful. Don't make light of her difficulties, how would you feel if someone did that to you. Many grans forget what it was like to have small children 24/7, it is really hard. She is not wallowing in the awfulness of domestic life, she is living it 24 hours a day and with little prospect of help from a hardworking husband, so she is no doubt shouldering things that in an ideal world he would do.
Things will improve and we survived, well yes terribly patronising and unhelpful, sorry
Yes things will improve. Think what you'd want someone to say to you if you were in a difficult situation, would you want people to say, gosh how difficult for you,a situation like that is bound to make you feel upset, or for someone to dismiss your feelings by telling you it will get better. Why not try saying something along the lines of motherhood is nothing like the adverts, It is really really tough, being responsible for 2 little children 24/7 is so relentless, you can't switch off for a minute even when they are in bed you always have half an ear on will they wake up. That opens communication not shuts it down. If you do want to get in a bit about improving, then something like maybe its hard to think when life is so overwhelming that sometime in the future things will get better, when you are surviving day to day. Yes, we survived but that again not helpful. She will survive, yes, as you survive other difficult times, but again it comes over as less than helpful. Do you ever gently say how happy the children are, how responsive she is to their needs, how good it is to see them being so well looked after, how wonderful that she is still breastfeeding, how that is such a worthwhile thing to do for her children's health and happiness.
I'm sorry that she says things that upset you, even when they are true. My children are both adults, and compared to when they were little I have so much more time to do what I want even though I work part time, I volunteer, I have animals and have to visit my very elderly mum at the other end of the country. If I can organise my responsibilities, ie get on top of work, and ask my daughter to look after the animals I can have a day out, or a few days out, I can do the household chores and no one but me messes things up. I only felt that overwhelming feeling of complete responsibility last year when mum was in hospital and I looked after dad who by then needed 24 hour care.
She may well be depressed, but feeling understood and listened to can be really helpful, and if she feels she needs help from the gp or the local wellbeing service she can get it. She can still breastfeed on medication, so no worries on that front. Finding a local breastfeeding group can be helpful, if there is one locally. Meeting up once a month with other mums and being listened to in a non judgemental way can be so helpful. She will see other mums all struggling in different ways , and finding different solutions based on their own situation, if she goes to meetings regularly she will see mothers who felt overwhelmed when she first met them but now things are easier, which will give her hope.
It is so important to not give advice, this is usually what worked for you, but she is a different person with different children and a different home life, it will not necessarily be the right thing for her. If you can see something that might be helpful you could say something like some mothers find x is helpful but others find y helpful. Or if you had a magic lamp what 3 wishes would you ask for And never criticism. Her choices are not a criticism of your choices all those years ago, and will have been carefully considered
Its great that you are so open to exploring other ways of helping her, she is lucky to have someone who wants to be supportive

PND as her view on her life is so low. I had this and youngest was 2 years old before it was recognised and only when I "crashed". Try to get DD to seek help.