Son, grandson, DinL

Alison - no-one is denying the existence of narcissism, but for unqualified people to 'diagnose' someone with this is dangerous and extremely unfair. How would you like it if people started diagnosing you with psychosis, bipolar disorder just because they thought your behaviour was not what they believed to be the norm?

Apparently it is not just DILs who are accorded this term - according to another poster, many MILs have received this 'diagnosis' over on Mumsnet.

It is all reminiscent of the old witch hunts.

13 years is along time. I hope your son has some good memories. He needs to see a solicitor as soon as possible to get contact sorted. Also clear the grounds for divorce. He needs some time to sort himself out - this must be an enormous stress for him. Please try not to get too involved YOU don't want to jeopardise anything, including contact, which can be a difficult issue, and it is possible that DIL will try to influence GS against you all. hope things work out.

BlueBelle - it is not always the case of MILs not seeing both sides - when you have seen your son publicly humiliated by his wife throughout the marriage and suffered her arrogant and rude behaviour for the sake of keeping the peace, you have seen enough to take a view that she is behaving in a way that undermines the marriage, and the confidence of someone she should be supporting.

I agree with the above. With some understanding of this too be brave and be there for your son he needs you.

My Son is a diagnosed narc, and these people are very very difficult to deal with, to the point we were advised NOT to try and deal with, and go no contact ! I now feel much better and healthier, yes, anyone who has never been part of the life of one, will never understand, and there will be a rocky road ahead for your Son, but make sure he gets a solicitor that is familiar with this personality ! Wish you and your son all the best, he Will feel better .

I do understand about DiL and I would say be careful about what you say. As far as seperation and divorce goes your DS needs to decide what he wants. He should try to make sure that his son comes to stay with him while he is in the rented flat and insist he has regular contact. If when they divorce the boy has stayed with him it will ensure that both parties have joint custody and are therefore entitled to have the same housing arrangements if possible. This may mean your Dil moving. Good luck and congratulations on getting your son back -he may need support from you as it is hard realising how toxic a relationship was. I'm not sure if the term narcissist is always relevant I do think that somehow we have now some controlling young women who behave in ways men used to and use tactics which most of us would never have thought of.

Well back in the day she would have been called a selfish , self centred B- - - h . Take your pick which you prefer .
I think Nanapples was trying to be as polite as she could under the circumstances.

Nanapples I know exactly where you are coming from! My son was also in a toxic relationship but only stayed for so long because she always threatened to take the children away and she knew that would just break him! Even now they have split up she is still emotionly blackmailing him if he doesn't lend her money,or get the children immediately when he arrives home from work every day ( not that he minds having them,he loves them to peices) he also has the oldest living with him (She refuses to stay with mum) he has the youngest 80% of the time.meanwhile "mum" is out every single weekend,sometimes from Friday to Monday's,then has the cheek to moan to him she's skint and has no money for essentials like milk and bread! If he dares to say no she plays the emotional blackmail card! A friend of mine is a psychiatrist and has said her behaviour is text book narcissist.oddly enough she's only 5ft and he's 6ft too.but we all have to dance to her tune untill the children are old enough to legally say where they prefer to live.bloody maddening!

Nanapples,
Having been through the same situation with my own son, I know exactly what you mean.
The following links might be of help for your son.
www.mankind.org.uk

www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/getting-help-for-domestic-violence/

shrink4men.com

Note. Domestic violence can also encompass emotional abuse.
Good luck. You're in for a bumpy ride....but it's worth it. ?

It's unpleasant to see your son unhappy but as an adult and one who has access to funds ,is it down to him to make plans, get therapy, whatever.

The children don't seem to get much of a mention?

I would also swerve the social media.

Perhaps she's insecure & not a narcissist at all. Labelling people seems to be the latest fashion.

Nanapples so sorry to hear that your son has been living with narcissistic abuse. I believe your account and of course your concern for your DS.

Family support and love are important for him and to support him and your DGC going through this.

The effects of the abuse will maybe last a long time but a way to lessen their effects on your DS will be for him to try counselling. Paying privately gets quicker access at:
Www.psychotherapy.co.uk. A regulated register.

Good luck for you all. Don’t listen to the ‘’there are two sides...’’.

Legal advice is essential to deal with the abuse cause of marriage breakdown and to safeguard your DS position.

There is a good web site called Quora, tells you all about narcissists. Compare, what they say the traits are, so you know what you are dealing with. It's very hard to win against them, I must add, especially in court. Good luck.

Anyone that has lived with a narcissist will have very strong views.
Narcissists are clever manipulative often very charming and attractive.
They are also controlling, abusive and very dangerous.
If you have been closely involved with a narcissist as I have then your first instinct is to warn people of the possible dangers.
Narcissists disguise the disorder very well, they also have a number of supporters often referred to as flying monkeys these people have been manipulated by the narcissist they are in awe of the narc and will help alienate anyone that the narc takes a dislike to.
They are almost impossible to deal with and there is no cure.
I believe that people should not be labelled but anything that raises awareness is for the good.
I have just about survived my mother a definite NPD sufferer but she has many friends and relatives that think she is a Saint and I’m the devil child.
She branded me a liar from a young age so nobody would believe the truth. If I was a child now I would be in care, back in the 60’s & 70’s we were viewed as a nice middle class family and my mother was a paragon of the Catholic Church.
A teacher I once confided in about physical abuse said I must have deserved the beating. I was 9 and she knew the family.
I would hate any child to suffer the childhood I had.
Awareness is key.

My daughter was married to a diagnosed narcissist and sociopath, the trouble these days people mistakenly self diagnose 'control freaks' as being narcissists. Narcissism goes much deeper than this. Yes, they can be looked upon as control freaks trying to control their partners by segregation with threats etc. They go much further than emotional blackmail usually violence. My own daughter was beaten up, had petrol tipped over her. She finally escaped with her young children when she 'disobeyed' him and he threatened to burn the house down with them all in it. This was 8 years ago, she left the area, can't come back and her address was kept secret by court order. Whereby I do have sympathy with the OP, I do feel narcissist is a word which is bandied too much.

Having had personal knowledge of living with someone who has narcissistic traits I can assure you he will thrive away from her.
I would worry about the children though. They are possibly damaged by her

Oh dear ...... how sad it is when a relationship goes so wrong. It affects so many people, not just the warring spouses.
Of course every parent champions their own adult child and the other person is the baddie. But basically relationships fail when two people stop meeting each other’s needs. The thing is to catch things before they escalate and go beyond saving - by communicating openly and honestly on an ongoing basis. But sometimes a relationship can’t be saved and the best thing is to end it in a fair and dignified way ........ but how often does that happen!
Many of us have some narcissistic traits ...... but a true narcissist isnt as common as we hear it is.
As a parent it is probably better to be supportive to your son .... but don’t get down and dirty with the name calling. Most importantly, don’t alienate the DIL ..... There is a lot of water to go u der the bridge yet! Good luck and take a deep breath and stay calm! X

Ooh just been through all this still reeling both son and two grandchildren , there is a very rough ride ahead sleepless nights etc . It's the sheer selfishness and lies around the children the dishonesty that's so hard . She will take him for everything unless he's very clever ,narcissistic behaviour is cold and calculating , There are always two sides but when you witness this behaviour close up its almost unbelievable as was said earlier if she is narcissistic buckle up

Your son must be grateful for such a supportive Mum. And it’s good that you can vent on here.
I agree withPP, help him to get a lawyer, ensure all communications are recorded (ie email, letters). Continue to be supportive but step back and allow them to sort it between them. If you make judgments or express opinions they could come back to bite you, especially with regard to DIL allowing access to GC.
It’s a stressful time, so take care of yourself too. Hope it all works out x

I agree with others who advise treading very carefully here, the child is top priority and whatever you think of DIL she is his mum.
I am not clear about the clutching at straws comment? As others have pointed out the marriage is fairly long and at the least DIL will be entitled to child support and a roof over their heads, anything less would be detrimental to your GS.
I would also be very wary of diagnosing mental health problems! This is not really a job for the lay person, and I agree with previous posters who state that there is too much of this these days. It could well be that your DIL does have a mental health issue but it isn’t especially helpful to label her with one in the current situation as you attempt to negotiate future contact

I have had first hand experience of a narcissist and it was diagnosed as a spectrum disorder, which means you can have a low level of narcissistic traits, or a high level, and anything in between. We partly hear more about it because people are more aware of personality disorders, which would have gone unrecognised before. Also I think people didnt necessarily spend that much time in tight family units in the past where narcissism thrives behind closed doors. Maybe also the current 'me, me, me' society leads to more pronounced narcissism. I think its both more common and more recognised now, so we hear more about it.

The narc I knew had zero empathy and was completely unable to put themselves into the position of the other person. They simply didnt care if their significant other was unhappy, because it was all about them getting their own way. They also loved power over other people. You could fight back and live your life on a roller coaster with one row after another, or you could give in and then they despised you as weak and treated you accordingly. Some small comfort to me was that someone told me narcs are very much drawn to the nicest people in the world, because they are easier to control and are less likely to walk away. Perhaps your DS is one of the nice people of the world Nanapples?

Nanapples. I am so sorry about what you and your son are going through.

I do understand when you say you need to "offload" and I hope people here will let you do that.

You have obviously spent a lot of time researching what makes this girl behave as she does, her cutting herself off from her own family is a big pointer regarding her difficult character.
Your son clearly needs a good Solicitor, and to make sure has gathers everything he needs as evidence in readiness for the divorce. Even covert filming is a good idea because, as you know, she will deny any bad behaviour he reports he doing. It would be obviously best for him to have custody of their son but be prepared, Courts usually give primary custody to the mother and the home to the mother. It is so hard for him but until he is free of her he cannot be in charge of his life.
You can do a lot simply by standing behind him, being his rock, giving him the odd good meal, listening to him when he needs to "sound off". It will probably be a difficult time ahead but they will eventually be divorced. He will always have to negotiate with her regarding their son, but once he is 16, things may get easier.
Keep your strength up. Better times are ahead. Think of the next few months as a "job" that needs to be done. Be prepared for all the unfair tactics she will try. You are obviously learning about her behaviour and have identified it clearly, which means you know where to start for gaining more information and help. Learn as much as you can. Use it to keep yourself going. You are not alone. There are loads of YouTube videos about how to deal with this sort of person including how to divorce them. You will find the ones that match your own needs. There are FaceBook pages where victims of these people meet and give each other help and encouragement too.
People who have not had to deal with it may not understand or be sympathetic. For example, I still find it upsetting, now on behalf of others not myself, when people say, "there are always two sides..." With this kind of person there is only one side - according to the narcissistic person that is theirs! They pick on the kindest most empathic and helpful people. They actually seek out these people discarding anyone who isn't extremely kind and unselfish. Then they prey on them to the utmost, taking over their whole life, cutting them off from friends and family, living like a parasite feeding off them. People do not know they are like this because they are excellent actors and put on a "public face" and also play the victim extremely well. If this does not match the behaviour of woman who is causing the trouble, then ignore me. If any of it helps, then please use it.
You will need a lot of strength and be ready to hear she is telling lies about your son and you. They lie all the time as you know.
I have seen a lot of this and am sending you every good wish and prayer I possibly can. I am so glad your son has you and that you can see what he is dealing with. Just be there for him. It's what we mums/grans are for! God bless you, your son and grandson!

jenpax. and everyone, We often get into the muddle of not knowing which words to use and become hesitant to use the words "Narcissism and narcissistic" in case people think we are making a diagnosis.
Actually it is not a diagnosis to say that a person acts in a narcissistic way any more than saying a person acts in a selfish way constitutes a diagnosis. If a person shows a lot of the behaviours that people who are described as narcissistic have, we are not diagnosing them, just saying they have a lot of those behaviours! So it can hold up discussion and worse, it can prevent people from finding appropriate help, if we get too scared to use a word that is also in the list of Mental Disorders, but is also a word in daily use. "Narcissistic" was used before the Doctors adopted it in fact and is descriptive of behaviour.

On the other side of the coin, there was a case of a young man who, I think, killed his parents and was found not guilty due to having a mental disorder which was Narcissistic Personality Disorder! I watched the program on TV not long ago. It bothered me a lot. The reason being that having this diagnosis does not mean that a person cannot tell right from wrong or is unable to decide between reality and unreality. The diagnosis in no way stops a person from knowing they are deliberately lying or hurting another person for example.

I can't imagine someone being found NG of murder because they were diagnosed with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder, unless the charge/conviction was Manslaughter due to diminished responsibility. That would still lead to a lengthy prison sentence, long enough so the person would have to be approved for parole and then on life licence.

Was that in this country, TillyBelle, ie the UK?