Son, grandson, DinL

Another one here who doesn't like the term narcissist being bandied about. Google is great for providing information but it is not a diagnostic tool. Describing symptoms/ behaviour to a professional is one thing but flinging around a medical term when a professional has not diagnosed is another IMHO. I have , during the course of my work, met many people with serious and enduring mental health issues. I have met many who over several years have had widely differing diagnoses, from personality disorders then paranoia, then bi polar disorder. All in the same person at different times. If a medical professional who has had umpteen years of training can't make a definite diagnosis then how can anyone with no training come to a diagnosis? I understand that other posters feel that no diagnosis is being made but if you use the term even as shorthand then that is what we are doing. As I have already said I am fully aware that women can be abusive, I also believe that there are often two sides to any story. For example; I have issues with a couple of my husband's friends. They are of the opinion that I won't allow him to go out on boy's nights out with them . It stems from when our children were small and he had promised that he would be in the home at the weekend to help. I worked full time and needed him around. His friends, who were unattached with no children, decided that I was being unfair to him. The fact that I was exhausted didn't come into it. So there are the two sides. Which one of us was right?
Clearly this is a very difficult situation for the OP and the rest of the family .As I said provide a listening ear but avoid being judgemental. When it is all done and dusted you still want to be on reasonable terms with all parties.

It may be appropriate to suggest that a person could have narcissistic traits or to name the behaviour specifically. Putting labels on a person is a substantial double-edged sword, because everything that occurs afterward can be perceived as part of the "label".

Re the Brian Blackwell case - it's my understanding that Manslaughter is a distinct crime and is not considered a lesser crime than murder. Voluntary manslaughter requires an intent to kill or cause abh. Diminished responsibility can relate to a diagnosis of a mental health disorder, learning difficulties etc. Conviction for manslaughter rather than murder may happen if the perpetrator admits having killed someone but without premeditation. This young man admitted the killings but without premeditation.
I'm in no way defending or minimising his actions. I'm commenting we don't know the detail of the trail and to suggest as Tillybelle does that the psychologist (or was it a psychiatrist) who assessed him was a young girl who was manipulated and gas lighted by him, stretches my sense of credibility.
Our Judges and the 'experts' appointed are usually very experienced. The maximum sentence for manslaughter is life. That's similar to a murder sentence and life licence will follow. That's acceptable to me.
I agree with those who say we need to be cautious about what seems to be a growing tendency to diagnose our family members and friends as having personality disorders. Psychiatrists are cautious about such diagnosis and some people have several diagnoses before an accurate one/or not can be reached.
We should remember, some people are not very nice, they're nasty, manipulative and selfish. There have always been such people and always will.

Loislovesstewie You would think that yes there are two sides to every story. The trouble with that is that these women don't accept that. There is their version and that's it.Try discussing or even suggesting something else and you are immediately cut out of their lives. I spent almost 14 years treading on eggshells with my DiL. I could never ask my DS for anything, buy anything for my GCs indeed do anything that involved them without running it past her first. Then the marriage hit problems and I suggested something she didn't like. She has barely spoken to me since. I was also surprised to hear when they went to counselling that she was accusing him of being 'controlling'. Which was strange as she had made every major decision in their lives together.

It's a common thing, for people to project their own unacceptable personality traits onto other people. So, controlling people often accuse their partner of being the controlling/narcissistic/selfish one in their relationship. Gaslighting at its simplest.

Trisher, the point I keep making is that the DiL has been stamped as a narcissist by a tick box on.a website and that it has been done by someone who admits that she has never got on with the DiL I am not commenting on any other relationship in particular but generally saying that if we were able to speak to the Di L she might give a rational explanation and she may well not be a narcissist. I'm sorry that you have had a really hard time. I have said consistently that I know that women can be abusive and I have also said that it is important to be impartial because in the end the grandchild is the most important person in this. I've heard it said that in an argument between 2 people there are 2 points of view and the truth . A lot of disputes are precisely that; picking away to get to the truth involved listening to both sides and relying on empirical evidence. I'm sorry to be so insistent but I would hate to be the person who accuses unjustly and without the unbiased , empirical evidence. I suspect that I am like this because all of my working life was about trying to gather facts, look at evidence and make a decision based on that.

Relate, of course, thank you trisher!

I agree, and have posted to that effect, that MIL needs to be very careful, be supportive but not take sides - or put undiagnosed labels on her DIL.

ps and I am sorry that you have had a difficult time of it and hope you still have a good relationship with your DC despite all.

No one knows what goes on in a relationship other than the people involved.
My concern would be for your grandson who will be very worried and not understand what is happening.
He may even believe he is at fault in some way for the reason your son as moved out.
This is the time to support him making sure you have contact with him and let him know how much you love him.
If your DIL will not allow you to take him out send him letters and postcards to show you are thinking of him.
The adults and their solicitors will sort out the divorce if there is one and there is nothing you can do about that.
As a mother we have to allow our grown up children to make their own mistakes, and only offer advice when asked.
It can be difficult but if we don't want to loose our sons we have to try and get along with our DIL