Son, grandson, DinL

I think you might find that covert recording might not be admissible evidence. There is some case law on this; it might be deemed to be intimidation. It is up to the court to decide whether such is admissible but it could well backfire.
I also wish that people could try to not take sides so readily. We have no idea why the DiL does not contact her own family, why the OP didn't take to the DiL , the allegation that the DiL is a narcissist is bandied around with no diagnosis from a suitably qualified professional. We know next to nothing about the marriage ,but there are often two sides to any story. Can no-one think of reasons why the DiL might not talk to family? Does no-one decide that they have had enough of another family member? Was there ever a conversation about the son thinking that his wife should go back to work? Was there agreement on that? There are too many assumptions being made.Looking at a relationship from the outside rarely gives us the true picture.
Please note that I am not suggesting that emotional abuse and physical abuse only happens one way. I am fully aware that women can be abusive.
OP, Of course you should support your son , sometimes.it's best to listen and let him vent. As others have said you need to do the best for your grandchild and that also involved being respectful to the mother.

I wonder if you are referring to the Brian Blackwell case,
Tillybelle.
The young man did indeed change his plea to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility, but was not found not guilty of murder. The double-murder charge was dropped after he pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility after experts diagnosed him with narcissistic personality disorder.[4] Blackwell was sentenced to life imprisonment on 29 June 2005.

Narcissist is the new buzzword......

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Blackwell

If anybody is interested in the facts of the case.

Pat1949. i am so very sorry for your daughter. You too. You have seen such behaviour at its extreme end. Indeed the threats constitute what used to be Psychopathy.

Narcissism does not have to be violent and does not even need to be diagnosed. It can be used to describe behaviour. It can help someone in a terrible relationship who is unable to find a way out or understand what is going on to simply look up the three major descriptions or types of Narcissism and often things drop into place as they realise that what they are enduring is abuse.
If we are not scared of using some terminology it can open the door for many people to understand that they are being abused. Many controlling, coercive, manipulative, threatening people, people who like to isolate their partner, put them down, ridicule them in public etc, are not recognised as being abusive by the suffering partner until someone says "look up narcissist" and they see these behaviours described.
It is not using it as a diagnosis, it is merely giving it as terminology that covers a range of behaviours which are terrible and lead to the person on the receiving end becoming depressed, distressed, almost tortured. It helps the victim to learn how to cope, to learn their rights, how to survive, and the best way to deal with such a person.

If we are scared to use the term 'Narcissism' we will not be able to guide someone to look up a field which might give them the kind of help they so desperately need. Few people learn this term from the Psychiatrist's Clinic, but come across it in a deep conversation with a friend or when looking up help online. If it does not match the kind of situation they are in, people will just leave it.

You seem to be loving all this drama. Start enjoying your own life and leave them to theirs. They are not children stop interfering and start exploring the world outside the confines of your own family.

Narcissist may be the new buzzword, but if you have ever had the misfortune to come across one you know when it's the real deal. Sit tight, support your son. Make sure he gets a sympathetic solicitor. You will come across people who don't believe you or him. Forget Facebook and all the other social media, it will only wind you up. Good luck.

Loislovesstewie. I'm sure you are right actually - re covert recording. I have seen somewhere how it was used to shame a liar into forcing them to face the truth. I'll try and find where I saw it. Thanks.
Supernan I could hug you! You could not say a truer word: "*Narcissist may be the new buzzword, but if you have ever had the misfortune to come across one you know when it's the real deal*." Thank you.
MawBroonsback. Thanks Maw - I think he is the one. Did he take his girlfriend on holiday abroad (USA?) after violently killing his parents? Is this the case where the Psychologist was a young girl who was quite sure that he couldn't help himself due to his disorder? I will stick my neck out and say I completely disagree with her.
A Narcissist can be very intelligent, so very persuasive, so good at playing the victim, such a good liar, that they have fooled even some very experienced Psychiatrists. They can be exciting, appealing, charming, beguiling, dashing, and have the ability to make people fall under their spell. I have seen it happening and watched the poor victims fall for it. A narcissist is always in control. That is their aim. They have to be the one manipulating all others and in particular the one they take as victim. In therapy or when being assessed they will put everything into manipulating the assessor so powerfully in such cleverly skilful ways that it is inadvisable for these people to be assessed by one person on their own. To confound things further, there are three different types of Narcissist, so they are not always recognised.
I still maintain that NPD is not a plea that reduces culpability. It is not one of the Mental Illnesses in which a person has an altered state of reality and cannot perceive right from wrong. Neither is it a mental illness in which a person loses control over their behaviour and is unable to stop themselves doing wrong. I think the idea that you get yourself diagnosed with this kind of Personality Disorder and then are off the hook from the punishment for your crime is quite new. I only hope that his sentence was in perpetuity and that he will be incarcerated in a prison for people with mental disorders for the rest of his life, since it is, as yet, and irreversible disorder.
Bilboben. I think you have completely missed the point. Totally misunderstood what the OP said, and have no idea what an awful situation this is for her, to see her son at the hands of such a difficult person. Among other things have you not noticed that she says "Sometimes you just need to offload, but there's not always a listening ear to share with."

Not misunderstood. Not agreed with you. She needs to step back and try to establish a life for herself not dependant on what her children may or may not do. We grandparents need to let our children grow up and be the next generation. We can not control the future.

Tillybelle excellent post today at 15.40. We have a dear friend with 3 young children going through a terrible divorce. They live abroad and she is struggling to manage with few friends and no family close to hand.

Her soon to be ex is controlling, emotionally abusive and thinks nothing of ridiculing her in public. A few months ago she joined an on line group about narcissists and now, for the first time in 18 years she sees that the problem is him.

This has enabled her to rebuild her self esteem which in turn is enabling her to stand up to her abuser. Despite our conversations, it was the on line site that opened her eyes.

Nanapples I have sent you a PM you can access it top right hand corner and click on Inbox.

Callistemon and others - I had never heard of NPD until I described my mother's behaviour and it was suggested to me. She sadly has many of the characteristics of that disorder, which have caused me harm all my life and especially now, as she is reliant on us for almost everything. Many more children are diagnosed as on the autistic spectrum these days than in the past too, for example; it doesn't necessarily imply a witch hunt, just an improvement in knowledge (and, one hopes, treatments). Thanks for your insights, Missfoodlove and SunnySusie.

I wish you well, Nanapples, and hope your son and grandson - and DIL too - find the best solution for their circumstances.

newgran2019 and others
I do not dispute the fact that NPD exists - however, what I do doubt is the veracity of a group of Nanapples son'g friends sitting around, making a diagnosis of her DIL by ticking boxes on a questionnaire they have presumably taken off the internet.

A very dangerous path to thread imo.

Nanapples I do hope that you can support your son but at the same time maintain a clear head and a reasonable relationship with your DIL, whether she becomes 'ex-DIL' or not, for the sake of your grandson.
It is not helpful to splash around cod-diagnoses because someone's behaviour may be difficult - we only know one side of the story.

son's not son'g

Many more children are diagnosed as on the autistic spectrum these days than in the past too, for example; it doesn't necessarily imply a witch hunt, just an improvement in knowledge (and, one hopes, treatments)
No-one has mentioned autism.

If one suspects that a child may be on the autistic spectrum, one would seek further advice and help. One would not just go around labelling a child as autistic without a diagnosis - that would be wrong too.

I had never heard of NPD until I described my mother's behaviour and it was suggested to me
Were you speaking to a psychiatrist and was it his/her suggestion?

Lawyer lawyer lawyer, there are custody and access issues to resolve here.

Is Marriage Guidance still operating?

Has anyone suggested that?

Perhaps a shock like this could make them both modify their behaviour for the sake of the child.

Thank you Smileless2012for your kind comment.

I am so sorry to hear about your friend. It is not at all uncommon though and the long time she has been subdued by him and unable to see that he is cruelly manipulating her is also not uncommon. So many kind, caring and empathic young women lose the best part of their adult life to these evil and vile creatures. People do underestimate the extent of the problem. Partly because these people have so much power. They seek out and find jobs where they are in command, Teachers, Managers, Doctors, Lawyers, Clergy, and while in public they put on an image of being "that nice man".

I would like to see a program in school Personal and Social Education in which teenagers are taught about their rights and what is healthy in a relationship plus, most importantly, what are signs of a toxic relationship.
For example, my husband would always completely crush and spoil anything good that happened to me. I once sang in a rather good concert. Afterwards, while still aglow with the wonderful music (Verdi) echoing in my head, he came up to me, grabbed my arm and pulled me away from my friends and fellow musicians saying "That's enough amateur squeaking and squalling and anyway the band was too loud." The orchestra was a professional one you would frequently hear/see on TV, the main Soloists from the top circuit, one just recently having sung a main part in Wagner at Covent Garden, and I had sung a minor solo part, which I used to do when younger with another famous choir. However, I beleived him! I thought that I had made a fool of myself!

He actually ruined my life, preventing me getting my qualification in my career so I remained in a lower position, I have it now but so late on... He did so many other very evil things it would take a book to tell you.

I have worked in a charity to help the Victims of these people. As the OP says, the Victims, although predominantly female, are by no means entirely so. Many men are helplessly caught by the most merciless and dishonest women who make others think that he is the protagonist. As her son is being abused by a female, she might learn from looking up Borderline Personality Disorder too. I am not diagnosing, but advising that some of the behaviour overlaps and in trying to cope with it you may get some advice under this heading too. You need all the help you can get.

Meanwhile Smiles, I send you, your friend, and all those trying to leave a relationship with one of these dangerous people, all the love, strength, luck and friends, that they may need. Bless you!

newgran2019. I am very sorry to hear that your life has been overshadowed by a narcissistic mother. I do hope you have learned how to let the "Water roll off the duck's back" and not let her hurt you. There is a lot of advice for this on YouTube. People sometimes call it the "Grey Rock" method.

I understand exactly what you are saying about not having heard of NPD or Narcissism and your giving Autism as an example of it seeming to be on the increase but this being a factor due to increased awareness.

I have learned that the selfish, cruel and controlling behaviour of narcissistic people, who lie, do the most unbelievably heinous things, are insidiously cruel, keep their partner almost imprisoned by not allowing them access to friends and family or money for example, and all the myriads of torturous things they devise to hurt their victim, well - these people come up frequently on discussion and requests for help such as here on GNet. If we had to describe them by their evil deeds as I began to above, it would take pages, so instead we put them under the description that covers just about most of their behaviour and say they are "narcissistic".

Then - along come the accusers, waiting in the wings to pounce and say we are diagnosing them when we are not Psychiatrists! I have found that there are usually one or two ready to accuse without actually reading what has been written!!

I said earlier - no doubt Callistemon did not read it - that the terms narcissist, and narcissism are NOT diagnostic but descriptive. People can look back and see what I said.

We need a short-hand term in order to access help and advice and most people do say that even when they go to the Psychiatric literature they are helped. Nobody is setting themselves up as an amateur in Mental Health, but the lay terms are very useful in finding help. You will find that highly qualified Psychiatrists and Clinical Psychologists use the terms this way, before a diagnosis has been made, to describe behaviour in order to help a victim. How else can a victim seek help? The perpetrator - the one with the narcissistic behaviour - does not arrive at the Clinic and ask to be diagnosed! Diagnosis for a Personality Disorder takes a very painstaking procedure and then the actual Disorder takes an even longer procedure, usually undertaken by a Team of qualified Mental Health Practitioners. There are 10 Personality Disorders, in three Clusters each Cluster being very different from the others.

So do not feel you cannot say a person behaves in a narcissistic manner because the word was in use before it became adopted in the Psychiatry literature. It has both medical and lay terminology.

Callistemon Relate still give advice the trouble is the person with the power needs to want to change and they usually don't. Add to that the fact that such people are often very good at manipulation and when it's the woman some counsellors are more prepared to believe they are the victim it's difficult to get any results from guidance.
As a MiL you have to be careful. As long as you are prepared to play the role they offer you they will allow you to help out and be friendly, but suggest they could do something differently and they cut off contact and accuse you of all sorts of things.

Bilboben. I would say that you are a complete opposite of most grandmothers and mothers. You the OP accuse by implication of not having a life independently of her son. There is no evidence that she does not have her own life. You are judging her and making very strong inferences such as "You seem to be loving all this drama." There is not one place in the OP's script that shows "love" of "drama".

I think the vast majority of mothers would say they worry about their children if and when their children are going through difficulties of any kind. To do so is normal. It does not imply they live their life through their child.

When so much unhappiness surrounds one of her children you heartlessly tell her:
"Start enjoying your own life and leave them to theirs."

I think you do not have much insight into what it is like to be a mother and grandmother. This grandmother is in obvious pain. Yet all you wish to do is to add to her pain by assuming cruel judgements about her which have no substance in fact. If you cannot be kind, perhaps it would be best if you kept your implications and judgements to yourself.

trisher. So well said! The Mental Health Professionals I have looked up who advise about dealing with a narcissistic partner say time and again, do not take them to therapy!

The narcissistic person will manipulate the situation, manipulate the counsellor/therapist, make it seem they are the victim or that they are going to do all they can to make things better, then, armed with what they have learned, they return home to turn the screws of torture more tightly down on their poor partner.

Thanks Trisher - I remember your wisdom from other times btw, - you have made a really important point. Just had to underline it!

"*such people are often very good at manipulation and when it's the woman some counsellors are more prepared to believe they are the victim*"

Iam64 sorry - missed your message at the earlier time I think the page turned over!
It was in Liverpool England Callistemon

Iam64. MawBroon kindly gave us a reference so we can check.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Blackwell

I haven't been able to do so as yet. I suspect that the lesser charge of Manslaughter was applied due to his diagnosis of NPD, he pleaded Manslaughter but not Murder. I think he was originally accused of Murder but was found guilty of manslaughter.

Clearly I was not there!! Obviously I cannot make any judgements on this one case!! But I do feel very disturbed that a person so very manipulative as this type, a person who is narcissistic in the fullest sense and has even committed murder, can be seen as having reduced culpability because of his diagnosis. To me that shouts of a huge misunderstanding of the whole meaning of narcissistic.

Another problem with Narcissism is the so-called "reason" why people become narcissistic. A theory said that it was due to early nurture style. Either a parent was over- demanding or was distant. This theory - note, theory, has been bandied about a lot. But the research has shown it does not hold up! More narcissists had ordinary nurture styles and still became narcissists. Also more people had the so-called narcissist nurture style and did not become narcissistic.
But people still trot out the theory....

Tillybelle Thanks for that. I have learned so much in a short time. I had been a lifetime campaigner for women's equality and for women to be free of abuse, finding out what sometimes happens to nice men has been a real shock. I kept hoping there was a way to help save the marriage, I've sadly come to the conclusion that it can't happen.