Son, grandson, DinL

Nanapples,
Having been through the same situation with my own son, I know exactly what you mean.
The following links might be of help for your son.
www.mankind.org.uk

www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/getting-help-for-domestic-violence/

shrink4men.com

Note. Domestic violence can also encompass emotional abuse.
Good luck. You're in for a bumpy ride....but it's worth it. ?

Nanapples I know exactly where you are coming from! My son was also in a toxic relationship but only stayed for so long because she always threatened to take the children away and she knew that would just break him! Even now they have split up she is still emotionly blackmailing him if he doesn't lend her money,or get the children immediately when he arrives home from work every day ( not that he minds having them,he loves them to peices) he also has the oldest living with him (She refuses to stay with mum) he has the youngest 80% of the time.meanwhile "mum" is out every single weekend,sometimes from Friday to Monday's,then has the cheek to moan to him she's skint and has no money for essentials like milk and bread! If he dares to say no she plays the emotional blackmail card! A friend of mine is a psychiatrist and has said her behaviour is text book narcissist.oddly enough she's only 5ft and he's 6ft too.but we all have to dance to her tune untill the children are old enough to legally say where they prefer to live.bloody maddening!

Well back in the day she would have been called a selfish , self centred B- - - h . Take your pick which you prefer .
I think Nanapples was trying to be as polite as she could under the circumstances.

I do understand about DiL and I would say be careful about what you say. As far as seperation and divorce goes your DS needs to decide what he wants. He should try to make sure that his son comes to stay with him while he is in the rented flat and insist he has regular contact. If when they divorce the boy has stayed with him it will ensure that both parties have joint custody and are therefore entitled to have the same housing arrangements if possible. This may mean your Dil moving. Good luck and congratulations on getting your son back -he may need support from you as it is hard realising how toxic a relationship was. I'm not sure if the term narcissist is always relevant I do think that somehow we have now some controlling young women who behave in ways men used to and use tactics which most of us would never have thought of.

My Son is a diagnosed narc, and these people are very very difficult to deal with, to the point we were advised NOT to try and deal with, and go no contact ! I now feel much better and healthier, yes, anyone who has never been part of the life of one, will never understand, and there will be a rocky road ahead for your Son, but make sure he gets a solicitor that is familiar with this personality ! Wish you and your son all the best, he Will feel better .

I agree with the above. With some understanding of this too be brave and be there for your son he needs you.

BlueBelle - it is not always the case of MILs not seeing both sides - when you have seen your son publicly humiliated by his wife throughout the marriage and suffered her arrogant and rude behaviour for the sake of keeping the peace, you have seen enough to take a view that she is behaving in a way that undermines the marriage, and the confidence of someone she should be supporting.

13 years is along time. I hope your son has some good memories. He needs to see a solicitor as soon as possible to get contact sorted. Also clear the grounds for divorce. He needs some time to sort himself out - this must be an enormous stress for him. Please try not to get too involved YOU don't want to jeopardise anything, including contact, which can be a difficult issue, and it is possible that DIL will try to influence GS against you all. hope things work out.

Alison - no-one is denying the existence of narcissism, but for unqualified people to 'diagnose' someone with this is dangerous and extremely unfair. How would you like it if people started diagnosing you with psychosis, bipolar disorder just because they thought your behaviour was not what they believed to be the norm?

Apparently it is not just DILs who are accorded this term - according to another poster, many MILs have received this 'diagnosis' over on Mumsnet.

It is all reminiscent of the old witch hunts.

Whilst not disputing anything the OP has said, I do agree with other posters that there are so many people being labelled as narcissists these days.

It’s obviously the new buzzword and in truth there aren’t that many true narcissists about. However, there are many selfish, self centred and self serving individuals around.

Morning just read your post and I can understand how you feel. Our son married a Japanese woman we have two grandsons aged 8 and 3. I know there is a culture difference but DiL lived in America for a while n speaks fluent English. We found out by sheer accident they had married and we were not invited to the wedding nor was his sister and best friend. We have tried everything to get on with her. I send gifts over for them but never get a thank you. I had quite a serious operation recently and when got home our son faced timed me with the children she sat on the sofa on her laptop and never asked how I was. I know nothing about her not even date of her birthday. They have been over to stay with us but makes it obvious she doesn’t wish to be with us. Our son has changed he’s not the same and we know she controls him. It’s difficult he has two little children that he loves should he ever decide to leave he would lose access to the children. When he speaks to us on the phone he opens up and chats but if she is there he barely says anything. We live in hope things will improve. I really feel for you and understand what you are going through. Many friends have nice DiLs but not all are the same. Best wishes

Narcissism is real and DILs suffer with it and make family life hell. What we who are afflicted with DILs like this need us to be believed. Disbelieving or trivialising because it's not your own experience is cruel and thoughtless.

I could have written your post Nanapples as my DS is in exactly the same situation but with one exception, he hasn’t moved out. This is because he doesn’t trust his wife to care for the children aged 9 and 6. She frequently leaves them home lone and when she is home she takes herself off to bed and leaves them alone. (I also heard this from my GC not my son so I’m not taking sides.)

I didn't realise that there was a tick-box sheet for diagnosing narcissism, I thought that the diagnosis had to be made by a psychiatrist. Unless your son's friends have psychiatric training, they have no right to say that and to influence his decisions.

Ginny42, Iam64 and others have given sensible advice, and I would agree with those who say that you should not take sides - who knows if they may decide to stay together and work through this?

I would ignore FB too.

I divorced a very controlling man ( who always thought he was right and lied to others to prove it) I stayed much too long and left when my children were adults on the end. During the divorce he tried every trick to delay and thwart things it took a lot of time and a LOT of money before I was free and he ended up in a better position than me ( which is fine because now Im safe and happy) However be careful get a good solicitor ( first one ripped me off second one was fantastic) and be ready for a rough ride she won’t go nicely! Tell your son to make sure he has equal custody and get some therapy for his own peace of mind

"Now he's moved out, and considering divorce, she's starting to panic, she has no income of her own, and is starting to clutch at straws."

Do you mean she's trying to get him back somehow? If so, I see why you might be worried, after all, about her panicking. But he's a grown man and he will have to work this out his way. I'm sure he'll make what he feels is the best decision for him and his son. Please try to be supportive of DS w/o bashing DIL (if you can help it).

So sorry about all this, Nanapples! Glad DS seems happier now, though, and that he is mending his relationship w/ his sister.

You (general) never know when a couple might get back together though. Iv known mums who scoffed at the idea that their DS might reconcile w/ his almost XW, only to be shocked when he suddenly did. Sometimes it's b/c of the kids, etc. But I agree, you can't possibly predict for sure, so please tread carefully for your own sake and GS'.

Also agree you should tread carefully, anyhow, as being openly against DIL could affect the amount of contact you have w/ GS after DS and DIL divorce and the dust settles, etc.

Hope DS gets a good solicitor and they are able to work out custody/visitation and finances in a way that's fair to him and DIL both. Whether DIL goes to work now or not, whether she "panics" or not isn't your concern, so please don't worry about it. In the end, she will probably have to find something and she will.

Not sure why DS was pushing her to work though if she wanted to be a SAHM (stay-at-home-mom) and his income is good. If she valued being a SAHM, she may have found his attitude pushy and controlling (NOT saying it was intended that way). Regardless, clearly, there has been rising tension between them for a while. So perhaps it's better if they divorce. Just hope they make it as easy as possible on GS.

This is exactly why a parent should never get involved in an AC's relationship, and an AC should never ask a parent to get involved.

A parent's instinct is to protect a child. That's okay. That's normal. That's what parents do. But it also means that by definition a parent is not an objective third party.

Your son definitely needs to get himself an attorney. He may also find counselling helpful - not necessarily to get him and his ex back together, but rather to provide an opportunity for his own personal growth.

Hi OP. I would urge your son to get sound legal advice ASAP.
Did they own the house they lived in during their marriage?

Good luck and the near future may be stressful but it does sound like everyone is going to be happier all around going forward.

Yes, you're right, paddyann and, despite what I said above, I don't think my DS was - or is - perfect. There were things he might have done differently, so I expect that is true in this case. As you say, the child is the important one in all this.

there are TWO sides to every story ,my ex SIL's mother refused to believe he was a serial cheat even when faced with the evidence when he moved a GF into the family home...my daughter promptly moved herself and their children out.Dont believe everything your son says ,take at least some of it with a pinch of salt.He may be your son but like most of us he wont be an angel .He will have to support his son though and you should encourage him to make sure the child doesn't go without anything just because he thinks his ex should have a job.The child isn't at fault and mustn't be used to punish either parent

If dil does have NPD I’d have expected more evidence of that over the years.
What happened that significant m.h. Diagnosis is now first point of call when discussing ‘difficult’ people.

Agree 100% with everything missfoodlove has said.

Buckle up.

If DIL has narcissistic personality disorder then you are in for a rough ride.
My mother suffers from NPD and although she is now senile and in a home I am still suffering due to all the lies that she has told about me over the years.
I have family members who believe I have been cruel to my mother when in fact it is the opposite. I have given her far more love and support than she ever deserved.
If I can give one piece of advice it is this. Your son must try and communicate with her via email it is important he creates a paper trail so that he can prove what he has written and have proof of her responses.
Anyone with NPD has the ability to lie very very convincingly, you will have to learn to turn the other cheek and hope that eventually people will wise up to her behaviour.
I wish you all luck.

I'm so sorry you're all going through this and I'm glad your son has realised how toxic his marriage has been.

I'd recommend a book on toxic relationships. It will give you good tips and advice on how to deal with someone with toxic traits.

Stay amicable. Smile and nod. Don't bite back to her. Support your son emotionally, I can bet he's a right mess!

Your DIL being a SAHM will be taken into account when the divorce goes through. She's been looking after the children so your son can work.

Obviously seek legal advice and maybe a counsellor for your son.