Being bullied by close family - how did you put a stop to it?

I am also someone who remembers accurately what people have said. This is sometimes a useful trait and sometimes less so! I agree with Starblaze that active listening can be a useful tool in many conversations,.

Regarding dealing with bullying RamblingRose22, it doesto some extent depend on what is being shouted about as to how one specifically responds ...but I have found two strategies helpful:

1. Stating clearly that I am happy to discuss this but that I will not tolerate being shouted. eg "I will not tolerate being shouted at but am happy to discuss this when you are ready", then removing myself. (ie not describing the persons behaviour to them but describing your own perspective on what you will/will not tolerate and what you are willing to do)

2. Stating "I hear that you want */would like to */ do not like etc etc ie describing your understanding of what they are saying, acknowledging what they are saying/wanting. Then following this by stating your own perspective clearly "I do not want to do **/I DO like *" This is often followed by more yelling about their own perspective to which the reply is " Well obviously feel differently so we either find a compromise as a solution or do things our own ways and not together." And then leave if the shouting continues!

|If you feel able, describing some scenarios that you have dealt with/are dealing with might be helpful so that strategies can be applied to what you describe more specifically.

In the end, no one has to put up with the behaviour you describe and overall I agree with Hithere

I'm with you Starblaze on practising listening. It is valuable, and it is something I've tried to do more with friends since we've all retired. I just think some people don't feel they have to abide by normal social behaviour with family.
Maddyone I feel for you. My Mum had a cross to bear with my Father, but she struggled to take seriously any of us other than my elder brother and joined in the general dismissive mocking. It was so sad that until her dying day she believed this son was something he was not.

Me too Madgran it can be frustrating when someone denies something you know they've said.

I agree that active listening is useful, something that I think comes naturally to most of us, but I can't and wont listen to someone who shouts at me and is abusive and/or threatening., so tend to use the first strategy you've mentioned.

Tea3 I get a bit excited about these sorts of techniques... Growing up in an abusive household does not get you many good life skills

Most people unfortunately don't listen actively and I notice it a lot now, there is a literal facial expression I've seen for "just hurry up and shut up so I can speak".

That's just day to day, it's even harder to listen when emotions are high.

I guess even if it doesn't work on certain people it's at least a clear red flag when it doesn't that those people just aren't capable of being around you in a healthy way.

Family relationships breaking down is so sad. We all want to be seen and heard. It's horrible when people paint a picture of you that suits the way they want to treat you. Awful when abusive parents pit siblings against each other on purpose.

I don't think I will ever fully get over the disruption my mum did to my family but at least my children are protected from the dysfunction and all growing up happy and confident.

Why do you waste time and emotion trying to reason with such people, they are immune to reason and you are only serving their purpose in engaging with them and trying to kind and reasonable?

This is the most sane post I've seen on the estrangement threads for a very long time so thank you M0nica. I cannot understand why, once the difficult decision to estrange the bullying family members has finally been reached, why do you torment yourselves reliving it, rehashing it and dissecting it over and over again? Surely, for your own mental health and wellbeing, you want to move on, put the past where it belongs and live the best life you can. That's the best revenge for those that hurt you isn't it?

agree with MOnica, glad to see you back by the way !
i wouldn't try to tell someone how they are behaving because it is likely to further enrage them, and gets nowhere.
just walk away.
depends i guess on the context; if it is something you have to agree on, or if a decision has to be made.
but that is unusual. in most situations one can just withdraw.

Star blaze - I'm really taken with your phrase, 'are not capable of being around you in a healthy way'. That perfectly describes my elder brother's interaction with our younger brother!

I'm glad your own family are bringing you joy. So have mine. And just when I had time to do too much thinking about the past, along came the grandchildren to keep me focussed on the future.

I cannot understand why, once the difficult decision to estrange the bullying family members has finally been reached, why do you torment yourselves reliving it, rehashing it and dissecting it over and over again?

I agree Monica ...although in the case of the OP she has not actually come to that decision and is trying to find a way through, presumably to avoid estrangement. I suppose we all have to go though certain stages to make that final decision but once it has been made it does seem best to try to move on and live life to the full without them.

Helping others who are going through the process, using one's experiences to advise, can be positive of course if that is an aim although descriptions without relevant comment to a poster asking for help, may not really be helpful.

My mum has become very nasty and goading since dad died. She has never got over it, unfortunately my toxic brother lives with her because of his financial mismanagement. He can be incredibly aggressive and rude, as can she. The year I was 60 and also retired mum did her damnest to ruin every event that was organised for or by me. Since then I have detached emotionally from her and my brother. No longer does anything she says, get to me. I call out my brother when he speaks to me aggressively. I am superficially polite to him in company. I put up with mum because of her age but when she tries to goad me I either laugh or ignore the comment. I have cut my visits to once a week for an hour. If she is fine, then I stay the hour. If she kicks off, I leave. When she dies, my brother will never be in my home again. I have learned to protect myself from the pair of them.

I salute you Grandmabatty, you've terminated their ability to cause any more stress, hurt or upheaval in your life. And you've already formulated your plan on how you're going to proceed once there's just your brother to deal with. We owe it to ourselves and our loved ones, to do whatever is necessary to stop the negativity that pervades the relationship, move beyond it and look to the future, not the past. Liberating once you've discovered it isn't it!

Madgran is on the right track - this isn't about estrangement.

I can't walk away because I am involved in two joint projects with the two "bullies". I can't go into detail but the projects require administrative skills and the ability to understand legislation and joint decisions are needed from time to time.

The nastier one is a bully because she's a control freak who'll do anything to get her own way. That's why she's been divorced twice. She knows that by copying my late mother's bullying behaviour it will trigger the same reaction from me as when my mother was alive, making me really upset and stressed for disagreeing with her. She has no moral compass and puts her own needs above everyone else's.

The other one is a troublemaker and enjoys winding people up, but whilst she thinks she is being very crafty and subtle it is very transparent and I see through it straight away. She is easy to challenge and even to tease. She is annoying and a time waster but no more than that.

I am starting to think of them as donkeys with blinkers on - very unintelligent, stubborn and incapable of seeing the bigger picture. But at least donkeys don't try to hurt others.

I will take another look at Madgran's advice. Thanks to everyone for their help so far.

I hope you find a way through it Ramblingrose, it sounds very much as though you have the measure of both of them and have identified their modus operandi and that's at least half way to a solution.

I agree with Monica when it comes to estrangement as I too wonder why some who have estranged, rather then embrace the life they now have, spend so much time re living the past.

You're right Chewbacca that is the best revenge for those who have hurt you, whether they're the ones you've estranged from or the ones who have estranged you.

Chewbaca thank you. My mother has never apologised for her (often) bad behaviour although she is aware she is behaving badly and has done so for many years now. It took til I was 60 and a house move away to recognise her narcissistic traits. I am the scapegoat and my brother is the golden boy which has done him no favours, believe me. Looking at the family dynamics dispassionately helps me deal with them. I love my mum but I owe her nothing. That sticks in her craw as she is desperate to control some part of my life! ☺

Looking at the family dynamics dispassionately helps me deal with them.

Exactly so Grandmabatty, that's the healthiest way of dealing with them; almost as though you're an onlooker to someone else's mayhem. Dispassionate is the prefect word to describe it! No drama, no beating yourself up or analysis of the mechanics of it all; you're just focussing on what needs to be done next and then you'll be done. You deserve this ??

Looking at the family dynamics dispassionately helps me deal with them

A wise approach Grandmabatty

I can't go into detail but the projects require administrative skills and the ability to understand legislation and joint decisions are needed from time to time

...very unintelligent, stubborn and incapable of seeing the bigger picture

Regarding the "bigger picture" perhaps presenting different scenarios of the consequences of whatever the "bully" is demanding might be a way forward? And maybe writing them down for consideration if shouting is happening? As in "I will not tolerate being shouted at. I will write down the options and the consequences of those options and give them to you tomorrow. Then we can discuss them" And then walk out! If the shouting starts again when you present the papers , walk out again stating that you will not be shouted out. ie refuse to engage and come to agreement until this behaviour stops.

Regarding understanding legislation, maybe the same tactic, written down detail of the legislation highlighting the relevant bits and pointing out the possible consequences of not following legislation?

As a general point, having something written down for consideration and each person having a copy, can help in these type of discussion when there are bullies involved. Removal as soon as behaviour is inappropriate is also a very good and necessary tactic to block the behaviour too. Presumably if they need your agreement as part of a decision then they won't like the consequence of you refusing to engage as it will hold things up??

Sorry you are dealing with all this, it must be hard and somewhat demoralising

My DD is always, always, the victim. I was a dreadful mother who left her to cope with a jealous spiteful father on her own. I married someone twenty years my senior and discovered to my horror the man I thought would work with me to build a good life had very different ideas. He thought his wife would be waiting on his return each evening to place his meal on the table. Trying to be reasonable never worked because he was an individual who turned every situation to his advantage or into a row. He disapproved of my working and had no concept of what being a husband and father entailed. Once I understood how aimless life was to be with him, I refused to verbally engage. My D on the other hand, and like him, argues about everything which serves no useful purpose at all. The saddest thing for me is she is married to a similar individual who thinks going out to work, driving a lorry four nights a week, absolves him from anything on the domestic/family front. My D has been the main breadwinner for almost twenty years, she has two children runs a business as well as having a full-time job. Her H is moody and sulks, and is to my mind lazy, what I cannot bear is what this does to her and her constantly trying to placate him. Rather than telling him to go to blazes.

Let me be clear, I was not, absolutely not, suggesting estrangement. I was talking about walking away from the situation when it happens; turning to talk to someone else, leaving the room, going for a walk - and continuing as normal when you next have contact with the person, whether after 5 minutes or 5 hours.

A bully - and these people are bullies - feed on the rich nourishment of other people's response, whether that person is being upset, trying to be sweetly reasonable, writing things down or best of all knuckling down and doing what the bully wants.

The one thing bullies really hate is being ignored. If nobody takes any notice of them, their behaviour ends up being utterly pointless and looking rather silly.

The problem is most putative victims simply cannot resist having their say, and this thread has shown that again and again, but it will not work. You can't lose weight by eating cream cakes and when you respond to bullying, that is what you are trying to do.

A practiced bully has a way of getting under your skin and they're simply doing it for entertainment value. After upsetting people they walk away unscathed as it's just a game to them.
I experienced this from my ex-father-in-law; he would provoke arguments deliberately, which he always had to win. He was estranged from his brothers, contributed to the breakdown of his children's marriages, both of whom subsequently remarried and moved away from his influence, and ultimately spoiled his career.
There is little to be done to counteract this behaviour other than to remove oneself from it, because these people are unable to recognise their compulsion to destroy.

These replies have been very helpful, than you.

It is very sad when you have to deal with irrational and nasty people. I am a sensitive soul, alas, and they try to take advantage of that.

As estrangement is not an option here I will take the advice of eazybee and M0nica and others to remove oneself from the situation immediately.

I can tell the bully that their behaviour is unacceptable and that I am willing to discuss the matter when they stop shouting/threatening me. If the shouting etc continues, then I can put the phone down.

By blocking the opportunity for the bullying to continue it also shows them and myself that I have some power and I will use it.

Personally, I wouldn't say a word - just put the phone down - and go for a good long walk with the phone switched off so they cannot ring you back.

yes, i think it's a mistake to name the behaviour, even if it is unacceptable.
let your actions speak for you.
turn, walk away, or end call, switch off phone.
better not to engage at all at such times.
good luck.

Although the above situations are far more serious, remember the tactic used to deal with a toddler's tantrum; there is no show without an audience. Don't be that audience. People look and sound very silly shouting in an empty room.

I was talking about walking away from the situation when it happens; turning to talk to someone else, leaving the room, going for a walk - and continuing as normal when you next have contact with the person, whether after 5 minutes or 5 hours

Makes sense Monica