Grandfathers Are Important Too

True but I find it hard to believe that the majority of situations, especially this one, start off with ghosting. People don’t just disappear off the earth. I know that it’s the common gransnet narrative but I find it implausible. Take this grandfather. The OP admits he’s had “run ins” with the DIL. OP admits DIL doesn’t like the way the FIL treats her husband. It’s not a big mystery, like most cases. It’s just some people feel they are owed endless chances to “communicate” before the other party has had enough and decides to walk away. The OP is divorced from the FIL. Why might that be? Why do we think it’s okay for us to break vows, but our adult children must not have the right to walk away from toxic relationships where they never made a vow? I think that’s part of the reason this post fascinates me. The OP has no opinion on how this man treats her own son, but expects the daughter in law to simply accept the family dynamics that she herself apparently couldn’t. Lot’s of people are like this. We expect others to accept unhealthy relationships and vilify them when they don’t under the guise of “family”. The DIL is a villain her, but not the bully father in law. It’s on the young parents to communicate and work it out, but no word on just being a nicer person for the FIL. Fascinating I tell ya!

You may find it implausible lylelLye but it does happen and perhaps "it's the common gransnet narrative" because for the majority of those who post about their estrangement, this has been their experience.

I don't have personal experience of a toxic mother or toxic m.i.l. but would never dismiss someone else's experience as implausible as that to me suggests that they're simply not believed.

lyleLyle

True but I find it hard to believe that the majority of situations, especially this one, start off with ghosting. People don’t just disappear off the earth. I know that it’s the common gransnet narrative but I find it implausible. Take this grandfather. The OP admits he’s had “run ins” with the DIL. OP admits DIL doesn’t like the way the FIL treats her husband. It’s not a big mystery, like most cases. It’s just some people feel they are owed endless chances to “communicate” before the other party has had enough and decides to walk away. The OP is divorced from the FIL. Why might that be? Why do we think it’s okay for us to break vows, but our adult children must not have the right to walk away from toxic relationships where they never made a vow? I think that’s part of the reason this post fascinates me. The OP has no opinion on how this man treats her own son, but expects the daughter in law to simply accept the family dynamics that she herself apparently couldn’t. Lot’s of people are like this. We expect others to accept unhealthy relationships and vilify them when they don’t under the guise of “family”. The DIL is a villain her, but not the bully father in law. It’s on the young parents to communicate and work it out, but no word on just being a nicer person for the FIL. Fascinating I tell ya!

Well, our experiences are obviously limited to what we have experienced.

It's a mistake to assume everyone is rational. Families can be complicated things.

^I agree - but the reasons, for any anger, should be communicated to start with.

No one can respond to anything, if they don't know what the problems are.^

A nice idea, but unfortunately takes both parties to effectively communicate.

From personal experience? Trying to address issues resulted in a predictable set of responses:

That never happened.
You’re remembering wrong.
I don’t remember that.
Well, if YOU say so.
Quit holding a grudge!
You’re too sensitive.

There was never any willingness to listen, let alone correct/repair issues. In their mind, NOTHING would be a good enough reason to walk away, because they NEVER did anything wrong.

My own mother was often difficult and stubborn, and at times extremely annoying, but I loved her and never considered the possibility of estranging her. In any case, because I had such loving and caring grandparents I believed that children deserved a relationship with their grandparents and I wouldn’t have dreamt of denying my children that. They adored her, and indeed they adored all their grandparents, and were very distressed when they died. She was a good grandmother even though she was irritatingly annoying to her daughters sometimes. When she died I was absolutely beside myself with grief, because although she could be awkward and difficult, she could also be kind and loving. People are multifaceted, they behave in different ways with different people. It’s possible this grandfather could a lovely grandparent, but we’ll never know, because he won’t be given the chance it seems.

As you say DL, families can be complicated and we only ever experience our own.

Of course both parties need to communicate effectively MercuryQueen in some situations like yours there's no desire to listen so communicating becomes pointless.

In ours, there was no communication in terms of problems leading up too or at the point of estrangement and very little in the aftermath and what there was, was not an attempt to address any issues in any meaningful or productive way.

maddy "People are multifaceted, they behave in different ways with different people" very true. Sometimes the difficult parent can be a kind and loving GP.

maddyone

My own mother was often difficult and stubborn, and at times extremely annoying, but I loved her and never considered the possibility of estranging her. In any case, because I had such loving and caring grandparents I believed that children deserved a relationship with their grandparents and I wouldn’t have dreamt of denying my children that. They adored her, and indeed they adored all their grandparents, and were very distressed when they died. She was a good grandmother even though she was irritatingly annoying to her daughters sometimes. When she died I was absolutely beside myself with grief, because although she could be awkward and difficult, she could also be kind and loving. People are multifaceted, they behave in different ways with different people. It’s possible this grandfather could a lovely grandparent, but we’ll never know, because he won’t be given the chance it seems.

Difficult, stubborn and annoying are vastly different issues from toxic and abusive. If someone can’t manage a respectful, civil relationship with the parents, why would the parents trust them with their children? If someone can’t behave appropriately with adults who are equal in power, why would they behave better around vulnerable, powerless children? If someone has a history of treating their own children badly, why would they treat someone else’s better?

These are the questions many people struggle with, who end up estranged. I think it boils down to trust. If I can’t trust someone to be decent with me, no way am I trusting them around my kids. My primary responsibility as a parent is their safety and wellbeing. To knowingly introduce someone who has a history of toxic and/or abusive behaviour would be failing my kids.

Of course, a big part of the issue is, so many people don’t realize that their family is dysfunctional until they’re adults, and often parents themselves. So many people, including myself have said, “I looked at my child, remembered what had been done to me at that age, and realized, no, that was abuse.”

In abusive families, the behaviour is so normalized, that it often doesn’t start to become uncovered and recognized for what it is until adulthood, and often, a long term partner or spouse who not only holds up a mirror for the person to examine the situation, but also gives the support and security that enables taking the risk of questioning the norm the person grew up in. It’s actually a very scary thing to do.

Please note, I’m only referring to toxic family relationships, not making a statement about all family estrangement.

Smileless2012

You may find it implausible lylelLye but it does happen and perhaps "it's the common gransnet narrative" because for the majority of those who post about their estrangement, this has been their experience.

I don't have personal experience of a toxic mother or toxic m.i.l. but would never dismiss someone else's experience as implausible as that to me suggests that they're simply not believed.

With all due respect, I can’t be convinced on that. Sorry. I’ve read plenty of comments on the estrangement thread. We will have to agree to disagree.

maddyone

My own mother was often difficult and stubborn, and at times extremely annoying, but I loved her and never considered the possibility of estranging her. In any case, because I had such loving and caring grandparents I believed that children deserved a relationship with their grandparents and I wouldn’t have dreamt of denying my children that. They adored her, and indeed they adored all their grandparents, and were very distressed when they died. She was a good grandmother even though she was irritatingly annoying to her daughters sometimes. When she died I was absolutely beside myself with grief, because although she could be awkward and difficult, she could also be kind and loving. People are multifaceted, they behave in different ways with different people. It’s possible this grandfather could a lovely grandparent, but we’ll never know, because he won’t be given the chance it seems.

And it’s not our place to judge what risks parents should take when exposing their children to toxicity. You took a chance. Other chose not to.

@DiamondLily,

Families are complicated. People are complicated. We can’t expect others to join other people’s complications when there are healthier alternatives. In this case the parents have decides the healthier alternative is to not risk further exposure to the FIL. It’s totally understandable that DIL is choosing not to join in. Her husband clearly supports that.

@ maddyone,

I’ll also add that it is not possible to be a lovely grandparent and be awful to the parents. A good grandparent respects and loves the parents. Without that love and respect, you’ve already failed at the grandparent part.

It doesn't really matter if you're convinced or not lyleLyle. People who post on the estrangement threads talk about their own experiences. Sometimes EP's and sometimes EAC.

They do so to share, to seek advice and support not to try and convince others that what they're saying is true.

I find your response to maddyone rather disconcerting. The fact she found her mother "difficult and stubborn, and at times extremely annoying" does not mean either that her mother was toxic, or that she believed her to be and took any chances by enabling her children to have a relationship with their maternal GM.

I find the word toxic is over used when it comes to discussing relationships, and certainly shouldn't be applied to anyone else's unless they've described a relationship in that way themselves.

maddyone has not said her mother was "awful" lyleLyle and if she says her mother was "a good grandmother" whose to suggest otherwise.

Smileless2012

You may find it implausible lylelLye but it does happen and perhaps "it's the common gransnet narrative" because for the majority of those who post about their estrangement, this has been their experience.

I don't have personal experience of a toxic mother or toxic m.i.l. but would never dismiss someone else's experience as implausible as that to me suggests that they're simply not believed.

I sincerely doubt it’s most common that they have no idea why the eatengement has occurred. In fact in most cases I think they absolutely have been told , warned etc but so many of them see hell bent on not hearing it. Often needing to be told that not knowing the reason isn’t the same as not agreeing with it or thinking it’s not really a problem.

lyleLyle

@ maddyone,

I’ll also add that it is not possible to be a lovely grandparent and be awful to the parents. A good grandparent respects and loves the parents. Without that love and respect, you’ve already failed at the grandparent part.

I would agree. The first job of grandparenting to to respect and support the grandchild’s parents. I love my grands to pieces , but the first part of my job description as a nan is to love, respect , and back up my children and their spouses as their parents.

Smileless2012

It doesn't really matter if you're convinced or not lyleLyle. People who post on the estrangement threads talk about their own experiences. Sometimes EP's and sometimes EAC.

They do so to share, to seek advice and support not to try and convince others that what they're saying is true.

I find your response to maddyone rather disconcerting. The fact she found her mother "difficult and stubborn, and at times extremely annoying" does not mean either that her mother was toxic, or that she believed her to be and took any chances by enabling her children to have a relationship with their maternal GM.

I find the word toxic is over used when it comes to discussing relationships, and certainly shouldn't be applied to anyone else's unless they've described a relationship in that way themselves.

A. You don’t need to defend the estrangement thread to me. I read information and formulate my opinions. We don’t have to agree on anything at all. Moving along…

B. I found maddyone’s comments about the young parent’s decision over-simplistic, not applicable, and only through the prism of her own experience. The issue at hand is a disrespectful grandfather, not an annoying one. The FIL sounds toxic. Toxic. Whether or not her mother was is not what my comment was about. The the fact is this young couple do not want him around their child. The virtue signalling and martyrdom around those who supposedly had bad parents whom they never kept their own children away from is belittling and insulting to those who made different choices. She made her choice. This couple chose differently. They know what’s best for their child. Maddyone’s experience and choices are different, not better. That was my point, which I think was quite clear.

I didn't say it is the most common Grams2five I said it happens, which it does as we can see from some of the experiences that are shared here on GN.

What are you basing your claim on "that in most cases" EP's have "absolutely been told"?

I wasn't defending the estrangement thread to you lyleLyle
merely pointing out that just because you find some EP's and EGP's experiences implausible, possibly because you view them through the prism of your own experience, that doesn't mean that what they've experienced hasn't happened.