Petition: Give legal right of contact between grandchildren and grandparents

Not arguing.
🙂

I would think so too fancypants and I don't know about you VS but I'm not just talking about emotional abuse, I'm talking about abuse in all of its forms.

I've posted more than once that a relationship between the GP and GC needs to be proved to have existed Grams in order for them to be successful in court.

Ok but 8 was talking specifically about emotional abuse in several comments and could not have known replies addressed to me saying I was incorrect were expanding to different types of abuse

But that doesn't change the fact that the law is as it is to keep children safe for very good reasons which I have tried to touch up on

It's not my opinion, it's the law

These grandparents were first of all given custody of their baby granddaughter.

The courts returned the little girl to her parents, despite red flags everywhere. Her grandparents and others warned of the risks,

No lockdown, no Covid. The courts just went with “parents are best”.

Ellie was killed by her parents, age 6.

Which proves parents aren’t always the best at decision making or anything else.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/10/ellie-butler-unlawfully-killed-inquest-ben-butler

I wouldn't sign it as it would cause such trouble. The child comes first. I never tried it as my gd had good parents and a good life, if on the other hand my gd had been abused or neglected in any way I would have sold my house anything to rescue her.
It’s not an automatic right to see gp, some could be dreadful people as are some mothers and fathers, several children are killed at the hands of cruel parents, they are very much in the minority, a tiny percentage. In everyday life it’s different, estrangement seems to happen more as a form of control, in which case we have to give our gc up and hope one day they might make contact, having missed out on all the joys of their childhood, there’s no winners.

I will not sign this petition.

I do not think grandparents should have any 'rights' whatsoever to see or interact with their grandchildren.

Who is to say that grand children would tell grand parents about problems at home, or even that grand parents would respond appropriately. Children see plenty of other adults, who they could talk to and could well be better placed to notice signs of neglect, abuse or any other harm coming to them. Teachers, nursery staff, nurses, doctors, social workers. There is nothing special about grandparents in that situation.

DiamondLily, awful murder of that little girl. The key reason behind the return seems to have been the successful appeal by he father on his conviction for shaking her as a 6 month old baby. Convictions for that kind of injury are not easy as you’ll be aware. That said, this brute had convictions alongside a very worrying psychiatric report. That should have been enough for the family court to maintain her placement with grandparents. Also, private. Profit making sw agencies

Whose to say they wouldn't talk to their GP's M0nica and depending on the relationship with, and how often children see their GP's, of course they're special; more special than teachers, nursery staff, nurses, doctors and/or social workers.

I don't understand why it seems for some that children having a relationship with their GP's appears to be so abhorrent.

Smileless2012

Whose to say they wouldn't talk to their GP's M0nica and depending on the relationship with, and how often children see their GP's, of course they're special; more special than teachers, nursery staff, nurses, doctors and/or social workers.

I don't understand why it seems for some that children having a relationship with their GP's appears to be so abhorrent.

Even if grandparents and adult children or children-in-law might have a difficult relationship for whatever reason, it doesn't follow that the grandparents might not be able to form a loving relationship with their grandchildren.

They are different people, different dynamics.

Teachers, nursery staff, nurses, doctors, social workers. There is nothing special about grandparents in that situation

I disagree. Will an abused child be taken to the doctor? Sometimes they are kept away from school, nursery. Why would a social worker be involved unless suspicions were raised or the family was known to Social Services anyway?

I'm not signing the petition because I think it emphasises the rights of the grandparent whereas I believe the rights of the child are paramount.

I believe the rights of the child are paramount I agree Callistemon.

A friend of Mr. S's. son hasn't spoken to his parents for several years now but he and his wife continue to see their GS. He often accompanies his grandfather to bowls to watch him play.

An example of parent putting his child's rights and wishes above his own.

I don’t understand why it seems for some that children having a relationship with their GPs appears to be so abhorrent.

Absolutely Smileless.
Indeed I would go so far as to say that GPs often have a bird’s eye view of what is going on between children and parents. Sadly parents are the most likely people statistically to hurt, damage, abuse, or kill their children. Thankfully the last is rare. We’ll never know the numbers with the others. Of course other adults abuse children too, unfortunately, and some of them maybe GPs.but parents are the main offenders.
Low level abuse that others never see occurs in particular when parents divorce. Often the abuse is directed at the spouse, but is often also experienced by the children. GPs can be a stabilising force in these types of conditions.

No one is saying that parents aren't abusive... Which is obvious when you think some of us are estranged from them

We are saying that no magic happens to abusive people when grandchildren are born to make them not abusive

Which means giving grandparents automatic rights to see the grandchildren (even though that is a weird thing to ask for because parents do not have that right) opens up the pool of adults they are left alone with.

As Monica said, there are many adults in children's lives who are actually trained in spotting signs of abuse and also trained in how to talk to children without directly questioning them, thus preventing rendering anything they report as inadmissable.

The law is as it is to protect children like mine and children like I was because we all had abusive grand parents. Imagine how it feels to know a person abused you and you can't stop them seeing your child. You also can't prove they abused you because it was emotional abuse or they left no scars on your body from physical abuse. How many sexual abusers are also out there still because their victims could not prove it or couldn't talk about it?

In most cases if a parent, or especially a mother and father are saying, "this person is not safe around my children" we should be believing them... Always

The very fact that parents on this thread have said that and people haven't taken it seriously enough... Does that not say it all really? Does that not show you how hard it is to be heard?

Why do so many threads end up being about abuse?

Is anyone saying that there is any kind of magic that makes an abusive parent a non abusive GP VS? We are all parents on this thread and on GN, those of us who are GP's wouldn't be so if we didn't have children.

Apart from the OP, I haven't seen anyone say on this thread that GP's should have an automatic right to see their GC, not one.

Some parents prevent a relationship between their child and their parent(s) because of a history of abuse and some do so simply because they can, and those parents aren't putting the interests or the rights of their children first.

I know what it's like to have been abused and to have struggled to be heard. I also know what it's like to be denied our GC and them us, just because their parents decided to do so and I am not naive enough to assume that a parent wouldn't claim the child's GP's aren't safe to be around, in order to keep them away.

You're right maddy and where there's divorce, if the other parent's being denied contact with their children to abuse them, the children of course suffer too.

Parents, a step parent or a parents' partner are the main offenders when it comes to the abuse of children but we don't tar them all with the same brush, so I see no reason to do so with GP's.

Maybe because for some it's the only argument they have GSM.

Indeed.

Violet, as Smilesless has just reminded us all, you are not the only poster who has personal experience of abuse. As well as being parents, the majority of contributors are also grandparents. Some posters have their own estrangement story. I don’t mean to be offensive but it does sometimes feel you see yourself as the gransnet oracle on all forms of abuse and its outcomes. That no one else knows it or can tell it like it is.

The thread is a petition for "automatic right" so yes it's relevant

Legally, children have rights, the outcome of this petition being successful would overrule those rights. The primary right of a child is to be safe from harm.

So my comments are very much in the context of this thread.

As devastating as it is that good grandparents have lost contact with grandchildren, more children would be placed at risk by it too because in most cases where both parents are saying, this person is not safe around my child, that's because it is the truth

Any grandparent cut off unfairly who can prove a relationship that is beneficial to the child, can go to court already.

Any grandparent never having had such a relationship cannot... But imagine the impact on a child suddenly being left with someone who is a stranger to them...

Romanticised ideals over a child you haven't met cannot undo years of legal obligations to the priority person here which is the child

If grandparents and grandchildren have a close, healthy and happy relationship, then they most certainly can and do disclose any concerns and worries they have. It can often be their “safe place”. I’ve seen it many times.

Teachers have a class full of children, some with special needs, and it’s very naive to assume they would always pick up on problems.

The same with Social Workers - their caseloads have stretched them to breaking point.

For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t sign a petition, because I don’t think automatic GP rights should be the default position.

Nor do I think GPs kept away from GCs, for no good child centric reason, should be other default position.

Each case, where there is dispute, should be settled, legally, on its own merits. Without some of the huge legal costs currently involved.

Which is why no one is supporting GP's having an automatic rights to see their GC VS and as the law currently stands, GP's must prove they have an existing relationship that's beneficial to the children.

No one here that I can see has romanticised ideals over a child (they) haven't yet met. Not all GP's unfairly cut off from their GC can prove they had a relationship before hand, because not all of them us included, were ever given the opportunity to have one.

It would be more beneficial to this and other discussions on this issue if some posters could see beyond their own awful experiences of being abused.

I think it's such a shame when you dismiss me like that, knowing I have an education in safeguarding and child development Smileless and treat me as though I cannot formulate an unbiased opinion

I think we can do better on these discussions

I understand you aren't signing and that is very appreciated...

If I could come up with a better system to ensure children are safe while having access to all potentially loving family members, I genuinely would.

People easily forget that I see this from both sides having been estranged from family myself by my mother and having been through attempts to alienate me from my father.

But in the case of grandparents having rights to access, I am always going to lean towards what a child's rights are and how to protect as many children as possible because that is the best we can do

We all know that no adult is infallible when it comes to safeguarding children, that children in danger are missed, that SS is overworked and understaffed and that mistakes happen. Yet, so many of us are doing our best

I agree that agencies usually do their best, but, time after time, including during the years I worked for SS, children are often failed and we hear the usual refrain of “procedures have been changed, lessons have been learned” - and then it happens again.☹️

I genuinely don’t know if you are a grandparent, but you seem to have some strange ideas about us!

Most of us love our GC’s dearly, know them very well, are confidants at times, and would always put their interests first.

Which is what the Children Act says: The needs of the child are paramount.

And that will vary case by case.

It's 2 separate issues

There is sadly no good grandparent test to be taken so it always must go to court to determine

I am part of a forum that deals with grandparents rights globally and unfortunately, the good grandparents are less often the ones that apply for rights where they do exist... It is more often the controlling abusive type who fight for rights.

The reason being that the good grandparents generally recognise that the court process puts stress on the family and choose not to take that route and work on mediation/family counselling attempts instead.

Fighting over children in court puts direct and indirect stress on the child, as we know in this country which is why CAFCASS exists. It puts financial stress on the parents, it takes the parents time away from the children and puts emotional stress on parents that children are exposed too. Where it is the parents that are controlling, the children are then exposed to more potential emotional harm. Often these children have already been through a difficult divorce.

The controlling abusive grandparents do not care about anything like that and are more focused on the children as objects to be fought over and winning.

So we leave the rights with the children, this doing our best to ensure access is given where it truly is in their best interest

Luckily, Cafcass, SS, and the Guardian Ad Litem are actively supporting my DD and the rest of us, to have regular contact with my GS’s child. Along with the rest of her extended paternal family.

As we are party to the Care Order, luckily, we haven’t got financial strain.

They all agree the birth mother should never have anything other than closely supervised contact with the baby.

She sees the child as something to score points with - so I guess both generations can be unsafe. 😗