return to childhood religion

Dawkins is just fighting back, as is his right. As others have said, he is scathing in his attacks on religion, but then again religion is fairly strident in its attempts to proselytise, twist or carefully select the words printed in their various "holy" books and generally heap scorn on anyone who disagrees with their take on their particular god.

I must admit I've become more of a pro-active atheist since the political party Family First (basically the political wing of the Pentecostal Assemblies of God church here in Australia) has started putting its nose into politics. 12 years of C of E indoctrination has given me the ammunition needed to discuss at least Christianity with their dullards who show up at shopping centres when an election looms, and every minute I spend refuting their ill-founded delusional dogma is a minute they don't get to spend trying to turn someone else to the dark side. I'm sure that grates with many people, but given how the christian fundamentalists taliban has have managed to have so much political power in the USA I think it's fair enough to fight back to keep religion out of politics in my country wherever possible.

Wow - for someone who believes he's an atheist (believes there is no loving God) you certainly seem to be afraid of something, to hate it so much.

I just get frustrated that people cannot see through the whole god thing. Sometimes I feel like the boy in the Danish fairy tale, 'The Emperor's New Clothes', being the only person who can see that there is nothing there.

But, these illusions seem to be an important part of the life of many people.

Oh and as for that Family First idiot - don't get me started!! The Assemblies of God are the nearest thing we have here to US style fundamentalism. I got invited to a Christmas Pageant they put on once. It was very entertaining, very slick and professional, but as I looked around at the congregation something felt very wrong. I couldn't put my finger on it, but later I realised - it was exclusively white! This country is the second most multicultural one in the world after Israel, but that lot are whiter than a KKK chapter. Scary, I thought.

Yes, Kiwigran. What I'm afraid of is theocrats gaining any degree of political power based on mythology. If they wish to push their barrow to their followers I have no problem with that, but if their dogma has any effect on my secular life I find that extremely frightening. I'd like my political leaders to decide policy and legislate based on evidence based science and the simple rule of do unto others. You don't need a god to meet those criteria.

It's not so much a disbelief in a loving god as a disbelief in any god. I have no need for a god, and of course on the off chance that a god were to reveal that it does exist I'm sure it has no need for me, but I see no evidence for anything supernatural or paranormal in our wonderful cosmos.

I would suggest to you PoppaRob, that the majority of the men (and women) who founded the great country of Australia were Christians, and they brought all those Christian values and faithful, prayerful, intellectual thought to create a society (that you enjoy the freedoms of today), which is still living under the blessing of those prayers and foundational decisions. The same applies to America. You wish to live your life with no belief in a deity, you have the right to do that, but remember it was Christians who fought for the right for you to enjoy your secular life.

When the First Fleet arrived in 1778 they also believed in blood-letting and that washing would make you sick. It's a flawed argument to suggest that because a belief system was in a position of power 233 years ago that it is still both relevent and deserving of having power in a largely secular nation now.

Kiwigran, your beliefs are strong as are mine and neither of us are going to budge. I apologise to Frida for hijacking her original thread. My profile is public, so Kiwigran, if you'd like to discuss our beliefs further please send me a message.

Didn't realise we had to many from the colonies here (joke!! ) In UK we don't have a 'Christian government and I personally would never vote for a Christian party - I can just imagine the fall out if/when something went wrong!! Crucify.....crucify....they'd be yelling for blood!
What i do believe is that we have many Christian politicians in all parties as well as atheists, Jews and Moslems and thats just right and proper.
What I don't comprehend is someone who has had Christianity in their youth and now is so adamant that their is no God? People make mistakes, people do bad and wrong things, but God....well.....He suffered and died to reconcile us back to Himself so.....for me thats such a blessed relief. I don't have to pretend or kill myself doing 'good works' because I can't buy my way into His presence, I just do what I do and depend on God's grace, love and mercy for my eternal resting place. Until the death bed, there is hope for everyone (even Prof. Dawkins

milliej, I'm sure you enjoy the comfort that your belief gives you, but please accept that other don't share that belief, and in my case I came to see the flaws in the belief system I was indoctrinated into as so vast that I have no place nor need for a god.

I read a quote some years ago that reduces christianity to it's fundamental parts as follows... "The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat fruit from a magical tree." Yes, you can dismember that description and take out the bits that don't work for you (eg. Adam and Eve) but to an enquiring mind if you start to pick and choose which bits are acceptable lterally and which are just allegorical then you've surely reduced the book to the point where it's just another book of fables and perhaps an instruction manual for either leading a good life or becoming a bullying psychopath or something in between. As an atheist I'm equal opportunity... your description of your god and the positive outcome you feel came from what was effectively the suicide of christ shows your christian background, but I'm equally atheistic about hinduism, islam, bhuddism, etc. You believe in just one god more than I do, so we're not so far apart really.

That picture of God is all wrong (perhaps mixed up with 'lesser gods) Jesus didn't commit suicide, He's God and God cannot die.
What interests me is that evolutionists (those who take it to the ultimate) would rather come from apes and think themselves animals with no future than believe they were created in love by a God who made them in His image and likeness. A God who is loving, merciful, gracious, but also just!
We are miles apart, I have hope, peace even in times of conflict and a wonderful everlasting life to look forward too...and you?

Definitely an evolutionist happy to evolve from an early primate, and re the miles apart bit... All bar the everlasting life... before I was born there was nothing - after I die there'll be nothing.

If Jesus was a part of the Trinity then either the father part of him decided he had to die or the son part of him allowed himself to be killed = suicide. If he was a standalone saviour then he made a conscious decision to allow himself to be killed = suicide. Sorry, but that's just simple logic.

Jesus death would be suicide if He had inflicted the wounds himself - but He did not. The wounds were inflicted by humanity ( and I say humanity, not specifically the Jews as some have done).....consequently He gave us access to the Father as we see the extent of the evil within us. The work of the Cross for humanity was/is massive, there are endless ways in which His death can save us, heal us, transform us etc etc. Those who acknowledge they cannot possibly cleanse themselves of this deep seated propensity for hatred and evil (we only have to look at our world today) and ask the Lord to exchange His perfection for their imperfection, can receive into themselves His perfect Spirit. This is no fairy tale. If it were, why would millions of people from every corner of the globe witness to this life changing relationship....we have come face to face with the person of Jesus Christ....there is no argument against that. You cannot tell me this has not happened to me...as you are not me.
Those who don't want to think on these things, I believe, cannot face
what is ugly in our human make-up and admit to actions they know to be
wrong. So it's easier to believe when they die there is nothing
(oblivion). You are making a terrible mistake.

I have to agree with Kiwigran sorry PoppaRob, how do you know there is nothing after death, can you prove it? Science can't!
On the other hand Christians can 'prove' that there is everlasting life because Jesus conquered death and overcame the grave, it's wonderful news.....honest

Or - he was cut down from the cross while still alive and healed by his friends...........

Or, he died, stayed dead, and myths arose when folks said they'd seen him. Could happen - just ask Elvis!

The criminal who goes out in a blaze of glory knowing full well that he'll be cut down in a hail of bullets effectively commits suicide by cop. For JC to accept his crucifixion was effectively to commit suicide. In Acts 2:23, however, the crucifixion is viewed as the fulfilment of the plan of god (who was in the catholic and apostolic religions a part of the trinity) so one third of the trinity was proactively plotting the demise of another third.

The problem is that the foundation of my atheist arguments is provable / acceptable by any non deist standpoint, your "argument" or "proof" of the existence and divinity of your god isn't unless you play the faith card, and the faith card usually trumps the rest. In my (and Dawkin's) world if you play the faith card you drop out of the game. Bertrand Russell's Flying Teapot argument shows the fallacy of unprovable belief.

Joan, several writers have looked at possible explanations for the alleged resurrection, but none are especially compelling. The early christians were understandably secretive and paranoid, so all we can do is conjecture. The christians and muslims accept the resurrection, the jews simply report that he was executed. Your second suggestion works best for me... he died, stayed dead, and it was in the interest of his followers to suggest he'd somehow escaped death. Despite all that modern science has to offer we still have people who say we never landed on the moon, that Elvis is alive, that bin Laden wasn't killed etc. Throw the ignorance, superstition and paranoia of Jesus' time into the mix and I dare say you're right, but unfortunately we'll never know.

The sad part is, a split second after your spirit leaves your body you WILL know....and it will be too late.

Too harsh PoppaRob!
The Trinity....one God yet three is not at all as you suggest! God is far above and beyond our understanding but your 'faith' in evolution and indeed belief system has to be as doubtful as you say Christianity is!
Ok some folk say they have 'evidence' but who's word are you taking, a persons and you believe them?
I'm not saying Dinasour's didn't exist or that the world is older than the bible says (but I can say I don't know definitely how old it is!).
That is not as important as the present, how we live and our future. The past seems to be very popular in todays culture and I wonder why because it's past and whatever, we can't change it and we don't seem to have learned much from it because we repeat our mistakes!

I did say in one post that the bible was handed down with great care because it was so important (to humanity!) by Polycarp a disciple of the apostle John who walked with the Lord when he was on earth, as well as others as they spread out across the world to tell people of this wonderfully good news!
That God loves us so much (and is able!) to die yet live, I mean what sort of a God would He be if He couldn't do anything He wanted to. Actually He didn't want to die and had a great struggle in doing so, which in His humanity is understandable! He did it so that we can know God and not rely on ourselves because we can't earn or buy our own eternal place with Him. It's a free gift but cost God Himself, in Jesus ...a lot!
Let's face it this world is a mess, and mans inhumanity to man (or for the politically correct make that people!) we continue to destroy the planet and people!
Can we go on like this, no we can't and God is watching us. I also think that to say people of ancient times were so ignorant, superstitious and paranoid, does history a great dis-service! Who built the pyramids?
Who gave the world so much wisdom (Socrates for one!) who built Road systems, gave us (in UK) hot baths, the Romans!
No, no your argument won't suffice PoppaRob but it's good to talk ;)

For me it was to find freedom in the Church! Freedom from my own sins and freedom from those committed against me. I was brought up in a non-christian home, divorced parents but was always searching the ache inside - that which needed healing and filling and becoming more of who I was and am. The Catholic Church is full of sinners trying to understand life and maybe trying to become saints - after all Jesus said "I have not come for healthy but the sick". Failing and sometimes succeeding but needing each other to help us on our way - and also our friends outside the Church do this sometimes more. After all Jesus came to teach us to become more human. Mother Theresa used to say:- If a Jew could become a better Jew, a Christian a better Christian, a Hindu a better Hindu, etc.

Amen Carmel.
Who can say they know all the answers, are the superior thinkers and believers (or non-believers)?
The beauty of Gods creation is that we are individuals with free will and can make our own choices.
To own our failings and to strive to be the best we can be and to accept others as they are is ok for me.

I was educated in a Catholic convent. I spent most lunch breaks in the Lady chapel saying the rosary and praying to be "good". Why? Because as a non-Catholic, I was informed that I could not go to heaven and would therefore remain in a place called Limbo [which, as an impressionable eleven year old, frightened me a hell of a lot.] During the five years I attended the convent, certain experiences turned my thinking about religion inside out and upside down. I was never happier than on the day I walked away from the misery of that school. I am a Humanist...and proud of it

I completely understand why you would walk away from an organisation that would treat children in that way...that's not Christianity. Being the best you can be as a Humanist is, I suppose, a viable alternative. But what about your spirit....is there not a need within you to believe there's more to you than the few years we live on this earth?

I don't believe in any religion, as I cannot suspend disbelief sufficiently. Logic always prevails - I can't help it.

But wouldn't it be great if reincarnation could be proven? Imagine if we all KNEW we would be reincarnated as another human being, but did not know where.

Think of how the powerful countries would invest in poorer areas and countries, just in case they were reborn into third world poverty. Imagine how social welfare nets would be entrenched, just in case Mr Rich Bastard got reincarnated as the baby of a single Mum in a depressed council estate. Joining a union to improve working conditions would almost be a sacrament, like baptism. Social justice programs would prevail.......ah, if only........

I am a little scared to comment on this post, it is such an emotive subject, and I'm sure many of you think me a little flippant, so I will try hard to stay serious.
Firstly, I have not found my God yet, whilst, in times of distress, I would love to have spiritual comfort, it does not come.

All religions provide a framework of ideals that enable humans to live in theoretical harmony with each other, those ideals are what many of our laws are based on.

If your God finds you, or you find him, them embrace it, that means there is a place in your life for him, and I'm sure he will enhance your experience of life. But we must all be tolerant of those that choose a different religion or none at all.

tjspompa, I agree with you totally and I have not found my God yet.

I have looked but do not understand the explainations of my fellow humans trying to get me to understand the meaning of things such as the Trinity. If there is a God I am sure he will understand my reluctance at not following for the sake of it. If I don't understand what is written in the bible I don't undertand it.

Many so called christians I know pick and choose the bits they want and disregard other bits, or even tell me times have changed and the bible must 'keep up'. Mankind makes the bible ambiguous - I am a very black or white type of peorson, it either is or it isn't.

If there is a God, he knows what is in my heart

Kiwigran - thank you for your response. I believe that at the moment of death, every atom of my being will be "recycled" by nature. I therefore have no fear of the here-after, as for me, it doesn't exist. I aim to live my life well, do my utmost not to cause harm to any living thing and am content to hope that when my life-span is over - I shall have done my best and may even leave behind a legacy of love...

Heleena, I wouldn't worry about people picking and choosing which bits of the bible to accept and which to reject, I think this is perfectly OK. it isn't one book after all: as the name suggest, it is a collection of books. Some bits contradict other bits: do you go with 'an eye for an eye' or 'turn the other cheek', for instance?

I understand completely that many people refuse to accept without question, things written in the Middle East 2000 years ago, before modern scientific knowledge. Some people pick and choose, while still maintaining religious belief: others, like me, reject the lot.

Supernana, I agree with you, and feel the same way.