Faith schools?

I was the head of a community primary school within spitting distance of Lady Margaret's.
They never accepted a child from our (working class) school all the time I was there 9or i think after!). The majority of girls travelled in from other areas to Lady Ms. They interviewed the girls beofre offering places (now illegal) and asked questions like 'What newspapers are read at home? What are your family doing at 8:00p.m. on a Saturday evening? !!

If I was i/c education I would abolish faith schools. They are divisive.

When , at the second school where I was HT, we has a brilliant OFSTED one parent commented how good the report was but what a pity we were not a church school....nearly punched him in the nose! But my moral standards held me back

ps i have taught in C/E schools so i have experience of them too!

I agree nanaej. I would get rid of faith schools, grammar schools, free schools, academies or any other variation. I would have everyone in local, state-maintained nursery, primary and comprehensive schools. As I said on another thread, that is how it works in Finland and they have some of the highest standards in the world.

I think we are in accord here . SPot on granjura - the most pushy parents opt out of the comprehensive system and let the devil take the hindmost. There has been a disquieting amount of mealy mouthed talk about grammar schools going on recently - Tory MPs are campaigning to bring them back . It psss me off when everyone assumes that the grammar school results are somehow totally attributable to the school and the teaching. Nothing to do with the handpicked kids. There are a number of excellent, high performing comps near here, but some folks still send their kids into the next county's grammar schools or even to mediocre private day schools - a long tiring bus ride (or drive) away.
We have an ecumenical primary school down the road. (our parishes here are all ecumenical - all the protestants cooperating to rustle up a congregation)
I overheard a conversation the other day in which big burly tattooed man a/ thought it was catholic and b/ said he wouldn't send his daughter there because he didn't believe in all that stuff.
The dynamics are different here - most people choose it because it is the local school - except for those who don't like the idea of a religious ethos - and they opt out. But MK is a slightly different country to the rest of UK!

Attendance at church is in steady decline -I looked at several Christian websites where this is bemoaned. Those who do attend regularly, tend to be the old, women, and rich. The young, men and the poor may be believers in 'something' (often given in reply to the question: Do you have a religious belief?) but they do not find Christian churches attractive. The type that bucks the trend are the happy-clappy, evangelical sects , many of which have largely black congregations. (That is not a value judgement, it is a fact). I have asked numerous people who claim to be Christians what it is that they believe, and few can give me a definitive answer.
Given this woolly, half-understood nature of the beliefs of most Christians, I wonder why they are still allowed to impose their own views via education the law, and the House of Lords.

I agree that all communties should have access to state-funded, non-religious schools and parents who want specific religious education for their children should arrange it via their church.

It is a curious anomaly that despite the decline in church attendance, extreme beliefs appear to be gathering currency. Or is it that we simply hear more about things like creationism by way of credulous and sensation-seeking medial?

greatnan
What we areSUPPOSED to believe in, is clearly? Stated onthe nicean creed![grin]

Hmph! Grin still doesn't work!

Oxford friend of mine used to say "Religion is for old women of both sexes".

It is interesting that here in France whilst there are some private Catholic schools, the state schools are completely secular and any mention of religion is kept firmly out. It has been this way since the beginning of the twentieth century.
I gather that the official reason the children don't go to school on Wednesday is so that they can learn the catechism. I can only think that the teaching must take place in supermarkets because they are always full of bored children trailing round after their grandparents.

Extreme evangelical views are very strong in US, but I think much less so in Europe. People who hold these views often have extreme right wing attitudes.
The Anglican church. I believe has an evangelical wing and a more liberal wing. Be interesting to see who they choose to replace Rowan.

In my many years in the UK I have witnessed the most amazing shenanigans by parents wanting to get their kids in Church schools. Going to Sunday service every Sunday for a year before, 'sham' babticisms (sp?), and so much more. Of course Church attendance dropping fast after the kid is in.
The level of hypocrisy has really shocked me.

I truly feel that ALL our children deserve a good education, ALL of them.

For my sins (evidently very serious), for a few years, I - a humanist - was drafted on to our Borough's Catholic schools appeals panel. Of course, Catholic children were admitted by right, but a surprising number of non-catholic parents wanted this alleged privilege for their children. They had heard that discipline in these schools was superior. Only a few places were available for these children and even fewer were available on appeal. A sizeable proportion of these appellants were from either a Muslim or Hindu background and didn't mind that the religion wasn't the same as theirs as long as it provided a disciplined attitude to life and study.

That surely says something about the perceived lack of disciplined attitude in other (i.e. not Faith) schools?

Apostles' Creed

------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

Surely we need some definitions - what are god, the holy ghost, and hell, for example? And how literally are we meant to take it? Does 'god' have a right hand?

Problem is in the UK, by the time you 'cream the top' for private then Church schools, the concentration of 'problem' children in the normal state sector becomes more concentrated. Surely ALL our children deserve to be provided 'with a disciplined attitude to life and study'. No school should be 3rd rate. As said before, in Finland, and also Switzerland - the best of all approach is working so well.

Most of the people we knew sent their children to private or Church Schools- and always told me 'but surely it is only normal to want the best for your children?'. And my reply always was and is 'what is the point of doing this, if it creates huge problems for society. Is a broken society really the 'best' for our children?'

We certainly are not' all in it together' whatever DC says.

It is my view that when schools select pupils, as faith schools do, they are perceived to be better by many parents. It works in other areas e.g there is a a limited edition/ amount ..so it becomes more valuable... . The value is often artificial.
Some faith schools are brilliant some are not..same as community schools but parents buy into the myth that faith schools per se are better. There is a pecking order , not based on facts, that puts all state/community schools at the bottom therefore they are undervalued. If all schools were organised , managed & funded similarly and all children attended ..not private/public/academy /grammar /comprehensive /free schools .... but just good local schools we might get some way to make the Labour/Liberal/ Tory avowed dream of social mobility actually happen!

I agree with everything you say, nanaej.
It would take decades to persuade the sceptical general public out of the notion that some schools are somehow 'better' than others, however.

I can but dream! Spent a lifetime in education and its politics! Sent my own kids to local state schools.. not always the ones with best 'reputation' and refused teacher advice to put DD1 forward for entrance exams to selective schools. Have two happy & well balanced daughters with a wide group of friends , good jobs and good social /community attitudes!

As a matter of fact, Anagram, the difference between the Catholic and non-denominational schools in that authority was merely 'perceived'. Indeed, in the case of a school of which I was a governor, the Catholic parents in the catchment area almost all preferred to send their children to our school rather than the designated Catholic one which also had a good academic reputation.

Yes, it was your post I was responding to, Annobel - it's a very difficult mind-set to counteract.

I think the reason many people perceive religious schools to have better discipline than others is because religions have a lot of rules. Many of the rules are bigoted, misogyinistic and lacking in morality, but that part of the equation is not perceived by people who don't know moral fibre from cellulose.

Bags
I did hear one encouraging story recently, that in the town where my daughter lives, (grammar schools, Church School where you have to jump through all sorts of hoops, rigid pecking order of secondaries), that a group of parents from one of the most sought after primaries had got together and agreed to send their children, together, to the local secondary school. The school is an Academy, created from a failing school, with a brilliant head teacher and two or three years of huge improvements in standards to its credit. It just needs a few more parents to do the same.

Disestablishment would be a start in the UK! Ridiculous that the CofE plays any part in our politics. Obviously there's much more to faith schools than that, but I do regard the whole shenanigans as ridiculous too, and the same goes for grammar schools! Aagghh! Have to go now!

Peter Hitchens is all for grammar schools - that on its own would be enough to put me off them!
Looks as if Clegg might be sending his son to the London Oratory - I think Blair's son went there too.. Oh, well, one law for the rich..........