Should the catholic church be asking schoolchildren to sign this petition?

I can never see the point of posting a photo that is not your own. Something to hide?

I have just flicked on to horatio's profile. I recognise the photograph (and he does make it clear that he isn't claiming that identity). CSI Miami has to be one of the most ridiculous programmes on the television – my daughter and her husband, who love the other CSIs, refer to the leading character as Fellatio. Frankly, I don't think he's even that interesting.

That is really interesting, when. Do you think that offenders can be shown how to avoid abusing, even if their sexual fantasies remain the same?
If the abusing priests had been reported, would it have been possible for them to receive counselling/treatment, rather than just being moved on to another parish or school to continue abusing?
I know there were one or two prisons offering therapy for sex offenders, but I think it was decided that it was too expensive.

Sorry - didn't convert the link:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests

I worked in the assessment and management/treatment of sex offenders for many years before becoming a manager, and know the background and context in which sex offender treatment in the British Isles has developed since the 80s. Ray Wyre, a renowned therapist and criminal profiler and previously, a probation officer, started working to assist the catholic church when the first abuse scandals started to be disclosed and he set up treatment programmes in collaboration with colleagues in the NCPCC and Social Services. I trained with Ray and became a member of NOTA - the National Organisation for the Treatment of Abusers. This is a reputable organisation with worldwide standing and affiliation to other similar organisation like ATSA (Association for Treatment of Sexual Abusers) in the USA. You can find these organisations by Googling them.

Greatnan is correct in saying there is a higher incidence of boys abused by priests than girls - the ratio is about 2:1

A recent Guardian article addresses this issue:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests

A PS for Horatio...

I am not sure that some married middle-aged men suddenly "discover" that they are gay - there is the possibility (which is stated by many of them) that they suspected their orientation, but could not face up to the social consequences of coming out, especially in years gone by. It is possible that they have waited for the social climate to change before being able to be honest with themselves and with others.

Lydia - I am happy with greatnan expressing her opinion, just as I am with you doing so - I think that goes for most of us on here. We usually manage to discuss these things without accusations of any kind. That is one of the refreshing things about this site.

I don't see greatnan's serious concerns about organised religion as anti-religious bias - she expresses some important truths that concern many people, myself included. Bias implies a thoughtless prejudice - I have the strong impression that greatnan has given a great deal of thought to her concerns.

She clearly has good reasons from her own experience for her concerns - those of us who have not shared those experiences are not in a position to criticize: debate, yes, but not criticize.

Most of my religious friends are willing to acknowledge that a great deal of harm has arisen through organised religion - they retain a faith in spite of this, and seek to pursue their beliefs in a benign and positive way, and I respect them for that.

I cannot however share their beliefs or rest easy in the evil that has (and still is) perpetrated in the name of religion. To greatnan's list I would add the ritual mutilation of baby boys, which (astoundingly) is not outlawed in the UK.

No, Jess, there are too many nasty people in poliics!

I googled 'What proportion of children abused by priests were boys' and found lots of statistics. Here is just one quote:

'The evidence is that a higher percentage of Catholic priests and male Religious molest
children more than other ministers of religion. Clergy of all denominations do not molest
equally. In her foreword, the lawyer, Sylvia Demerest cites a 1995 survey of 19,000
treating professionals, funded by the National Centre on Child Abuse and Neglect. The
study found that in the US, 94% of abuses by religious authorities were sexual in nature.
Over half of these cases (54%) involved perpetrators and victims who were Catholic, even
though Roman Catholics comprise only 25% of the United States population. The minor
victims of priest abuse are overwhelmingly boys and teenagers, (80­90%), which is
contrary to the pattern of abuse in the general population'.

I rest my case!

Well said Greatnan , don't suppose you ever thought of going into politics?

I have made no secret of my hatred of organised religion and it is not breaching forum etiquette to state how I feel , so complain away. Having seen so much sadism and snobbery in my own catholic school, I was already very wary of the church, but the revelations about the extent of sexual abuse and the total failure of the culprits' colleagues and superiors to do what any normal, decent person would do and report it to the police, have made me loathe it even more. Please don't tell me there were a few rotten apples in the barrel - I suspect the extent of abuse is still not fully known.
I will research the figures on what percentage of abused children were boys - I know that tens of thousands of little girls were raped by priests or physically assaulted by nuns but I think boys might have been targetted more.

I hate the catholic church's attitude to women and homosexuals, to abortion, divorce and contraception. Are those enough reasons for my attitude? Are you telling me I am not entitled to hold those views, or state them? Should religious believers be given some special status that puts their views above criticism or comment?

I resent the Anglican church having representatives in the House of Lords and being able to influence law making which affects the whole population, most of whom are not Anglicans, or adherents of any religion, if attendance at church services and donations are any indication.

I hate the way pressure groups from various religions try to influence the law on assisted suicide, same sex marriage and abortion.

I hate the Islamic and Jewish attitudes to women - you see, my attitude to religions is very even handed.
I hate the way religions of all kinds have been used to control people and to hoodwink them into accepting unfair treatment at the hands of the rich and powerful.

I very much resent horatio's comments about homosexuals and think he is quite wrong in his apparent beliefs a) that there is something wrong with them and b) that they choose to be gay, rather than it just being part of their genetic make-up.

I think some people might agree with me but are frightened to put their heads over the parapet.

I agree that halal meat should be labelled - I merely pointed out that the decision to buy and supply it was not dictated by religious dogma but purely by commercial interests. I doubt if most supermarket chiefs are too worried about the ethics of slaughter - the are concerned with profits.

You want me to produce statistics for every assertion - perhaps you could supply some for your assertion that there is a god, that he is all powerful and all loving, and that your particular religion is the one with a hotline to him. Otherwise, it is your opinion, to which you are entitled, as I am to mine.

Lydia Greatnan will no doubt answer for herself but I just wanted to comment on halal meat.

I too would like to see appropriate labelling for all foods that we eat, particularly animal products.

Those who eat meat, including me, should not console ourselves that all is well because 'ordinary' meat comes from animals that have been stunned. Over the years, decades even, there have been numerous programmes/articles about the terrible goings-on in abattoirs. In the pursuit of speed and profits stunning is often perfunctory and not performed efficiently so the animal is far from 'stunned' when its throat is cut.

In my opinion, halal/kosher meat is no more cruel than any other.

There was recent footage of terrified pigs in the queue for slaughter being abused ..... kicked and prodded and cigarettes being extinguished on their sensitive snouts.

Presumably they weren't halal!

Greatnan
I see two different statements you use both of which I am looking for some type of proof for

1- I want to know where your figures come from when you state that Rome is staffed by gay men
Please do not quote a TV programme
Give me figures

2-- Do you want to argue with the freedom of information request by the Christian organisations which proved that nearly all supermarkets stock halal meat unlabeled which is the reason that a bill is currently going through the european Parliament to ask for labeling of all halal food

On the first subject I think you are showing the very definite anti Catholic and anti religious bias that you show in most of your posts which concern any subject which may even touch on religion

I have been tempted to complain on many posts

The second subject

I have no complaints about prayers said over any food
i cannot feel that any prayer is going to do me any harm
That may not be Christian teaching but it is how I feel
I do though have an objection to eating any meat that is killed without being pre-stunned

horatio How about 'lightening up' a little. You seem to want to ruffle feathers.

I don`t quite understand the relevance of the Shakespearian quote, but there we are; we all see different things in the same subject. We should stick to the topic , however.

Well timed quote Faye

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio!!!!

Shortly; Did you really think that I was being serious about eye colour GN; come on a little bit of give, and take please! On further consideration I think that those words are alien to you. Incidentally, my profile is there for all to see

Elegran/ Whitewave. We are drifting off topic, but briefly, will you explain why some men, off middle age with a family, suddenly `discover` that they are gay?
Born like it. H`mm, but I will agree that all people are people to me, if that makes sense, or let`s say equal, OK?

Well said, whitewave!!!

I echo your sentiments whitewave. Live and let live

Alas, whitewave , not everybody is as open-minded as you.

I'm not sure what the problem is really does it matter whether people are born or "choose" (which I doubt) to be gay. Can't think what is the big deal about it all. I live in Brighton and have all sorts of friends gay or otherwise and they are all human beings (or beans as my son use to say) just living their lives, hurting no-one enjoying each other. Sexual orientation, colour of skin, belief systems, age etc. are all fine by me provided they all behave in a civilized manner hurting no-one or nothing and supporting the human race

I found horatio's comments on homosexuality offensive and I see Godwin's Law was also brought into play . (Once Hitler and Nazis are mentioned on a thread.............)

Wouldn't bank on it, after those comments.

Yes, I can't see any profite for horatio - it would be nice to know a bit more about him/her. I hope he/she is going to post on some different threads.

Universities are hotbeds of sexual activity of all kinds. Young adults are newly independent and freed from the restraints of living at home. Those whose sexuality is towards others of the same sex do not have to hide their preference as they might in their home (maybe small) town. That does not mean that Universities cause homosexuality, just that it may be more open. No-one suddenly takes up being gay, it is built in to some people's nature.

I would be interested to know where Horatio lives, and whether he has experience of undergraduate life.