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Should the catholic church be asking schoolchildren to sign this petition?

(157 Posts)
Greatnan Sun 29-Apr-12 07:48:56

The leader of the catholic church in England and Wales has written to all catholic schools asking them to get the pupils, some as young as 11, to sign a petition against gay marriage.
Is this appropriate - some head teachers feel it is not.

Mishap Tue 08-May-12 15:18:28

A PS for Horatio...

I am not sure that some married middle-aged men suddenly "discover" that they are gay - there is the possibility (which is stated by many of them) that they suspected their orientation, but could not face up to the social consequences of coming out, especially in years gone by. It is possible that they have waited for the social climate to change before being able to be honest with themselves and with others.

whenim64 Tue 08-May-12 16:18:55

I worked in the assessment and management/treatment of sex offenders for many years before becoming a manager, and know the background and context in which sex offender treatment in the British Isles has developed since the 80s. Ray Wyre, a renowned therapist and criminal profiler and previously, a probation officer, started working to assist the catholic church when the first abuse scandals started to be disclosed and he set up treatment programmes in collaboration with colleagues in the NCPCC and Social Services. I trained with Ray and became a member of NOTA - the National Organisation for the Treatment of Abusers. This is a reputable organisation with worldwide standing and affiliation to other similar organisation like ATSA (Association for Treatment of Sexual Abusers) in the USA. You can find these organisations by Googling them.

Greatnan is correct in saying there is a higher incidence of boys abused by priests than girls - the ratio is about 2:1

A recent Guardian article addresses this issue:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests

whenim64 Tue 08-May-12 16:22:46

Sorry - didn't convert the link:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests

Greatnan Tue 08-May-12 16:24:17

That is really interesting, when. Do you think that offenders can be shown how to avoid abusing, even if their sexual fantasies remain the same?
If the abusing priests had been reported, would it have been possible for them to receive counselling/treatment, rather than just being moved on to another parish or school to continue abusing?
I know there were one or two prisons offering therapy for sex offenders, but I think it was decided that it was too expensive.

absentgrana Tue 08-May-12 16:39:06

I have just flicked on to horatio's profile. I recognise the photograph (and he does make it clear that he isn't claiming that identity). CSI Miami has to be one of the most ridiculous programmes on the television – my daughter and her husband, who love the other CSIs, refer to the leading character as Fellatio. grin Frankly, I don't think he's even that interesting. grin grin

Greatnan Tue 08-May-12 16:41:49

I can never see the point of posting a photo that is not your own. Something to hide?

absentgrana Tue 08-May-12 16:43:58

I'm doubtful about statistics to do with anything, although my instinct tells me that abuse of boys has probably been greater than that of girls. However, "scoring a Jesuit" or "having it away in the confessional" (very cramped and no soft surfaces) may never have been reported in many cases. "For those sins and those which I cannot now remember, may the Lord make us truly thankful…"

whenim64 Tue 08-May-12 16:58:06

Beware - long reply!
Greatnan some offenders who are not deeply entrenched in their abusive behaviour, and want to change, will respond in varying degrees to treatment. Part (and a very significant part) of the treatment is in deconstructing the content of deviant sexual fantasies and teaching distraction, avoidance, spoiling, and other strategies to banish the sexual fantasies as they flit into their thoughts. If you can imagine a probation officer specialist asking you to hand over your most deviant and arousing sexual fantasy so they can ruin your surefire way to an orgasm, you can rate for yourself how unlikely that is to work with someone who doesn't want to change. They won't hand over what we would sometimes call their 'bottom-drawer deviant fantasies' - the ones that always work.

The problem with abusive priests is that they can be indoctrinated into corrupt sexual behaviour as they are already proved to have been indoctrinated in at least one other way (that may be contentious for believers in the faith). 100% of abusers have been abused in some way themselves (being abused doesn't predict you will become an abuser - far from it) and being corrupted into sexually predatory behaviour against children means you are likely to set out to corrupt others. By corruption, I mean experiencing horrendous sexual abuse and eventually learning to gain sexual gratification from it. Priests who abuse seek protection from others, and usually get it - if they disclose abuse in their church, everyone will be investigated, so it's safer to keep abuse quiet, which means the opportunity for treatment is lost.

Some treated priests can be kept safe, and their risk reduced, but that means them disclosing the context in which they have abused, where they have been, disclosing names and which seniors knew but didn't act - no point treating and putting them back with a senior in the church who won't challenge suspicious behaviour and ensure they stay away from children.

The majority of prisons now offer sex offender treatment, and all probation services. It is cheaper to treat a sex offender in prison than to release them untreated and at risk of being reconvicted for further offences. It isn't too expensive now - it costs more in hidden costs of services for victims throughout their lives - depression, alcohol and drug abuse, self harm etc. Some see it as expensive because the amount of 'dosage' needed i.e. treatment hours applied, means that longer prison sentences have to be handed down to enable them to complete the treatment. 240 hours of treatment for a predatory paedophile will not necessarily effect a change if they are deeply entrenched. As a comparison, one-off sexual abusers who regret their behaviour and want to avoid doing it ever again might only need 60 hours of education and therapeutic intervention.

If every priest who abused was offered treatment, and the safeguarding children guidelines were adhered to, it would significantly reduce the number of future victims and men who are sexually attracted to children would be less likely to be allowed into the priesthood.

Greatnan Tue 08-May-12 18:16:56

Many thanks, that is very informative. I didn't know that treatment was still available in prison. I know that many, if not all, offenders, have persuaded themselves that what they are doing is not harmful, just showing love, is welcomed by the victim, etc. I suppose getting them to acknowledge the harm they are doing is the first step - although it has hard to see how any grown man cannot realise the physical pain he is causing a young boy, let alone the mental torture.

horatio Tue 08-May-12 20:52:30

Everyone is way off topic, so no replies!!!

whitewave Tue 08-May-12 20:54:57

Oh Horatio you are so amusing!

Anagram Tue 08-May-12 20:56:04

D'you think? hmm

whitewave Tue 08-May-12 21:02:06

No

whenim64 Tue 08-May-12 21:07:03

I'd rather go off topic than follow the homophobic comments, thanks.

jeni Tue 08-May-12 21:37:25

faye I did that quote from hamlet earlier!

jeni Tue 08-May-12 21:41:06

I am NOT going to rise to any more of this homophobes comments!
I am reporting this as offensive!

Greatnan Tue 08-May-12 21:51:40

Because of the prevailing attitude towards homosexuality when he was young, my daughter's ex-husband denied his own sexuality and married her. She found him down-loading gay porn after 14 years of marriage and four children. I believe most gay men used to marry, and it often ended in misery for both them and their wives.
She did not blame him for being gay - she was just sorry that he had not been able to live a truthful life.

Faye Tue 08-May-12 23:09:03

It happened a lot in the past, lets hope homosexuals can be more honest now that they should be are accepted as part of a range of normal people in society. It must be.a blow to find you inadvertently married someone who could never be the person you thought you had married. It happened to one of my relatives and I believe it was very common. In this case the parents and the minister from their church knew the young man was gay but covered it up thinking marriage would cure him.

Greatnan Tue 08-May-12 23:22:21

My daughter was devastated but said it explained a lot of things about her husband. She would have been willing to live with him platonically for the sake of the children, but he could not accept that and wanted to continue marital relations. As she found out he had been using male prostitutes she had to have an HIV/Aids test and then sue for divorce.
She told me he tried very hard to ignore his true feelings but in the end he succumbed.
I am very heartened by the attitude of young people. One of my grandsons told me a 16-year old friend had 'come out' when he was drunk at a party. To his surprise, nobody altered their behaviour towards him and they couldn't understand why he was afraid of telling them. They are the same with people of other ethnic origins too - they genuinely judge each person on his/her own personality and not by some stereotype.
It has taken a long time and many brave people have suffered but I am hopeful that homophobia will eventually exist in only a tiny handful of ignorant people.

whenim64 Wed 09-May-12 07:23:07

Hear Hear Greatnan. My son was able to express his sexual orientation as a teenager and had great support from family, a little amusement from his mates, but that was his own doing because he dediced to announce he was gay when he was 16, by slinging his arm round his boyfriend and giving him a kiss at a Labour party barbeque being hosted by friend's dad. The response? 'Dude! - why have you taken so long to tell us - we're you're mates? Here - have a drink!' smile

whenim64 Wed 09-May-12 07:27:38

....must check for typos....'decided'

absentgrana Wed 09-May-12 11:00:43

horatio This is a conversation, not a formal debate – Gransnet not the Oxford Union. Virtually all threads go "off topic" at some stage. Have you looked at any others?

Faye Wed 09-May-12 11:15:40

Sorry jeni if I had read your post first. what would I have written, mmm, what about
horatio To be gay, or not to be gay, that is the question!

Not as good but still horatio in this thread just does not realise that people don't have a choice whether they are gay or not.

LydiaReid Wed 09-May-12 11:21:13

whenim64

I read a while back and watched a programme on telly which stated that no person could give a guarantee that any paedophile could ever be trusted again near children

My belief is that any paedophile man woman priest should be kept in prison forever
You are right when you state that the cost of the damage done to children is a lot more that the cost of keeping them in prison

I have no sympathy for any offending priest nor for the people who hide them
They give all the people in my church who work hard a bad name
Their was though a wide ranging investigation which proved that the figures proved that their were no more priests than other professions who carried out paedophilia but then we don't ever hear about any other person do we

I would prefer studies done here and quotes from studies done here but maybe they are not as useful

I can only speak for Scotland but it is my understanding that the rest of the UK have now reacted in the same way

No priest is allowed to be alone with a child whether that be in church or school
Every church is covered by cameras as is the entry to a priest house
Every Sunday we have a newsletter which states in bold no child should be allowed to walk about on their own

The catholic world is very different now so few go into the priesthood but I am confident the ones who do undergo an extensive examination to ensure that they have no inclination towards paedophilia

LydiaReid Wed 09-May-12 11:26:36

Greatnan I think at last you and I have found something to agree on

I don't care who a paedophile is they should have been reported and removed from the church
Treatment for me is an irrelevance
Remove them from their duties and keep them away from children

Children who have been abused have an emotional dependence on the fact that an abuser has been punished