That man Dawkins

I don't think there is that implication at all, G.

I think you might need to keep saying it, feetle. Fine by me, by the way.

@petallus "Anyway, surely even in science nothing is proved 100 percent. There's always a small probability of doubt I believe"

As I think I may have already posted somewhere... science doesn't ever 'prove' anything - it seeks to disprove, to falsify. Work is published in certain journals, and then other scientists duplicate that work. If the data they produce tallies with the original work, it stands, and eventually may become a theory - and if the theory can be expressed in a short pithy description, it may become a law! If the work doesn't tally then the hypothesis will be brought up to date with modifications - and the process starts again.

Perhaps we don't have quite as much free will as we like to think. I have long been of the opinion that brain chemistry is very much involved in personality traits. Some people have a 'happy' gene (I have!) and others are born miserable and stay miserable. There is, I believe, a gene for criminality, but it is usually only activated if the subject suffers very bad life experiences. I know some people have believed that there is a 'god' gene that makes people turn towards religion.
The implication of these theories is that people's behaviour could be changed by altering their brain in some way (lobotomies?) and there is ample evidence that prolonged use of many drugs can alter it irreversibly. There was a researcher on Melvyn Bragg's programme on Radio 4 this morning, talking about exactly this subject. It is fascinating.

Well Bags I was trying not to be brutal

Just read the grey matter thing. Bit reductionist. What if being altruistic affects the way the brain develops?

Anyway, surely even in science nothing is proved 100 percent. There's always a small probability of doubt I believe.

Perhaps, being scientists, they think faith is irrelevant to altruism. I expect that's already been proved.

Thanks, Whenim. Bags that's interesting. It would also be interesting if there had been some connection shown between grey matter and faith (or not).

How apposite! Article called Volume of grey matter may predict level of altruism just popped up into my web zone! (via Twitter)

Another, more 'brutal' way of expressing the same thing that I've heard, petallus, is that believing something 'on faith', and following a moral guide (such as that homosexuality is a sin) simply because someone tells you to but without thinking it through, is intellectually lazy, some say even dishonest.

Also, Lilygran if you look at prisoners in general, they will weigh up what will give them the best circumstances, as anyone would, and you would be surprised how many suddenly discover they have gone deaf (so can ignore officers), got a serious illness (that's a morning on the hospital wing), want compassionate leave (parent, sibling or offspring has died, not that they ever felt the need to find them on the outside), want to learn to cook (extra rations in the kitchen), want a cleaning job (go-between for passing on drugs) and so on. It's too complex to be able to sort in terms of religion, personal safety or motivation to change for the better. Each prisoner has to be carefully assessed to determine whether their needs are genuine, with prison officers assuming they aren't and probation officers assuming they are until they know differently.

I vaguely remember studies of moral development where some psychologist or other came up with a hierarchy where following rules laid down by others was near the bottom and working it all out for yourself was near the top.

I don't know what this says about religion and morality but anyway don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger.

Lilygran I haven't heard that one. I think the advantages cancel out the disadvantages. All prisons provide halal meat, allow time for prayer, and will find places for prayer if cells have to be shared. Muslims who stay in their cells to pray may have to stay there until officers can return to unlock the wing for association, leaving only a couple of officers on duty, when other officers are busy doing escorts through the prison or attending review meetings. 15 minutes of prayer, but locked up for 2 unnecessary hours - doesn't sound like an advantage to me.

My brother was a devout Catholic in the army - he liked the fact that they were excused Church services on Sundays. And, of course, we all know how many converts Christianity has gained since school entry became dependent on parents' religion.

Thanks, Bags. Interesting but not conclusive, I think. Differences between UK population and US in terms of religiosity makes it questionable whether it applies universally. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the inmates of a Saudi jail were almost 100% Moslem but I don't think it would tell me much about the personal belief systems of Saudi convicts. Whenim I read somewhere that there is an incentive for people to identify as Moslem in jail because of the pressure and/or advantages to be gained from other prisoners. Does this ring a bell?

The last para says it all bags - 'jailhouse religion.'

A reference to religion and prison populations. This one refers to the US. If you do a google of the terms "religion and prison population" there are various other threads to follow. I'll have to ask MOG, who first told me this yonks ago, where his reference was from, when he gets home.

When I went into hospital to have a baby, I was asked my religion and said 'None'. 'Oh, we'll put you down as C of E' said the clerk. Needless to say, she did NOT.

It's true that religious beliefs outweigh atheism and agnosticism when stated affiliations are recorded on admission to prison, but these stats are not helpful in any way. Those with no wish to 'worship' stay in their cells in most prisons, whilst anyone who wants to attend a service gets out of their cell to socialise. Muslims tend to ask for privacy and a prayer mat so they can pray in their cells, so they have no need to make false claims. Prison officers often tip prisoners off - 'see the chaplain, attend services.' Not because they want the prisoner to convert, but because it gets them off the wing and under someone else's responsibility for an hour or so!

No one has researched what level of church attendance is maintained after release from prison, but anecdotally it's practically nil.

When did putting forward a point of view become nit-picking? If you choose to join in a discussion like this you can't complain if it doesn't go your way.
We are, after all, intelligent, mature adults.

I will look up the reference, lily. I know what you mean about people being assigned to certain religions, though. There's also the problem of whether proper questions are asked, e.g. it was only at the last census in The UK that you could actually say that you had no religion. Many people who were baptised put down the religion/church they were baptised in or brought up in, without it really meaning anything about what they believe.

moved, it's always worth picking nits. Saves a lot of trouble later on as it prevents them hatching and laying yet more nits.

I'm off, nit-picking has started again.

Bags what's your evidence for your statement about fewer agnostics and atheists in prison? Where? Seems very dubious to me, given the number of people who are "assigned" to an appropriate religion by bureaucracy. Also there might be other reasons for claiming to be of a particular faith.

Greatnan I was commenting about western concepts of goodness and morality and the fact that our laws are based on that. It stems from judeo-christianity and of course other belief systems have their own concept of morality. I don't believe there is only one form of altruism and did not say that.

Don't let's venture down the 'murderers with Christian beliefs' road, Greatnan! I've lost count of the number of born again Christian lifers I came across in my work. Always coincided with the parole applcation process! Me??? Cynical???

I think this thread is leading us back to Weinberg. He said something like:

Good people tend to do good things.
Bad people tend to do bad things.
But for good people to do bad things - that takes religion.