Christian Grans

One last try! Ceesnan, because this is a forum for people of all faiths, and none. Do you think we should have threads specifically for Moonies, Trekkies, Hindus......... Your suggestion is not only out of step with the inclusive nature of this forum, but also unworkable. How would you stop non-Christians contributing? I suspect you have not thought through the implications of your suggestion.

Good morning. Just read this thread. There has been an awful lot about religion on GN in the last week or so.
I see GN as a virtual women's centre with discussions going on in lots of cosy little rooms and over tables in the coffee bar. So what is the unspoken norm regarding these discussions, I ask myself. Anyone can join any discussion, as long as they follow the GN rules about not insulting etc. We try not to be rude, insulting or unkind. If we want to start a discussion we put a sign on the door and see who comes in to join us. We cannot guarantee that the people who walk through the door are going to be like minded. Neither can we put up a sign "knitters only".
But if someone has put up a sign saying "Advanced knitting group" and it gets invaded by people who want to argue the case for crochet, maybe it is a tad mean and unfair on their part.
ElsieJoy I do feel a little sorry for you but maybe your OP (original post) was a bit controversial. Atheists, you are a formidable bunch, like a whole pack of dogs with a bone. I would not like to be trying to stick up for Christianity with you lot on the case.
If you want to discuss Christian issues elsiejoy there is a whole section on religion and spirituality, with lots of threads I have never looked at. If a thread you like is there, why not "bump" it by adding a posting and see who joins. If you want to discuss Christian issues that have not yet been raised I am sure, if you get your thread title and OP on target it will attract some like minded people.

I don't think you understand, ceesnan. Such a move would be apartheid. That's why it's not a good idea. As absent has said, it wouldn't be a good idea for any subject. Opposition to an apartheid regime on gransnet is nothing to do with the subject of the thread; it has to do with opposition to apartheid on principle, because apartheid is not healthy.

I think you would find, on application to HQ for such a thing, that that would be the reply – though expressed in a much better way than I have.

I wouldn't start a thread for Christians to discuss Christianity as I don't feel that I would have anything to contribute. The only reason I got involved in this was because of the blatant hostility to the idea and I really hate injustice. What is so wrong with having one thread for them? As has been said on this forum before, you don't have to read it.

Ceesnan - why not just start any thread you want? There are no restrictions on what you could post, as long as it is within forum etiquettee. However, you won't be able to stop other people posting what they want, again as long as they remain within forum rules. Are you asking for permission to police a thread and remove any posts that you consider undesirable? If so, you are misunderstanding the nature of forums.
Why not join a Christian site, where you can swap ideas with other Christians to your heart's content (but of course, those pesky atheists get everywhere these days).

Ceesnan Thank you for replying. A dedicated thread – to whatever subject, whether religion, politics, sexuality or anything else – that must be policed to prevent the "wrong" people posting – is anathema. Of course, I am hostile to the idea, but not necessarily hostile to peoples' religion, politics or sexuality, etc.
btw I know this tiresome business about work gets in the way of all sorts of things.

absentgrana- in reply to your question of this morning "Is anyone complaining about Christians wanting to talk about Christianity?" well not in so many words, but the hostility to the idea of a dedicated thread is obvious Sorry for delay in replying, work got in the way.

Maniac - I am quite sure my post did not imply that your family had cheated in any way - please do not read insults where none was intended! I was making a general remark about schools asking personal questions of parents via their children. Talk about eggshells!

Many things happen in life which just have to be endured - there are some things so painful that no amount of positive thinking - or whever 'life is what you make of it' means - can make them bearable. I am sure I do not need to give examples.

Greatnan
for the record my DD has not claimed to be a Catholic to get her daughter in this school.In fact she and her partner are not churchgoers ,nor has GD been baptised. They have been quite upfront about this,talked to headmaster and have not been put under any pressure to conform
Like most parents they agonised about choice of school.
Their school of choice a)is within easy walking distance of home b) has an excellent reputation in all subjects c) GDs choice as her friends are there.

Note. Existentialist defined as ,Life is what you make ofit. The little word 'of' is important don't you think?

Yes, but I think it is a pity that people do not all have the courage of their convictions!

It's certainly not my place to ask you to change, Greatnan. I understand why you are hostile to Christianity. I hope you understand that the expectation of hostility might put people off joining the debate.

Lily, I have said exactly why I am hostile to organised religion and I am afraid I cannot withdraw a single word of it. Would you prefer me to pretend to opinions I do not actually hold? Or to make no contribution to the discussion? Of course I am hostile to attitudes which I believe are totally wrong and which cause great pain.
I am glad you accept that there has been no hostility towards individuals.

Thanks Lilygran. I think we do need a common vocabulary. Being gay or straight doesn't compare in the debate, for me. One is born with a sexual orientation that will out despite environment, whereas religion is socially constructed and a child will learn to conform to the prevailing religion they grow up with, until they begin to think through for themselves whether to accept it or not. I do agree that sexual orientation is a fundamental part of oneself, but for me that's where it parts company with one's religion or lack of belief. Not being provocative or personal, I promise

Mishap you are right. It is very difficult to discuss faith unless you have a common vocabulary.

Lily gran - there is a problem of language here for me. What does salvation through grace mean I wonder? Saved from what and for what? And what is your definition of grace?

A previous poster talked of being "washed in the blood of the lamb"..Jesus died for me etc. To a non-believer it is not even possible to translate this language - it has no meaning at all.

I have to say that I find the whole "death cult" aspect of christianity distasteful. I often wodner how ther cross as a symbol can be so pervasive - it is basically an instrument of torture and murder - would we worship an icon of an electric chair?

I say these things not to attack believers but to illustrate how meaningless it all is to someone who takes a rationalist stance.

Absent I think it's because so much emphasis has been placed by the non-believers on religious bad stuff that the ripostes have emphasised good stuff. For what it's worth, I believe in salvation through grace. And of course, you are right that Moslems and Jews are likely to suffer more and more overt hostility. Doesn't mean Christians don't. Greatnan you keep,on saying there are no attacks on individuals, just on people's beliefs and opinions. Yes, I agree with that. And when I talk about hostility and animosity I am talking about hostility and animosity towards people's beliefs and opinions. when it's because it is faith, not just opinion. I once compared it to being gay or straight ; it's a far more fundamental aspect of yourself than an opinion.

And this all started because I tried to define secularism for someone who did not use the word in a way I had understood it to have meaning. Yeesh!

Just read fairly quickly through what has been said on here since my last post. For me, arguing about religion is nothing to do with the goodness or otherwise of religious people; it's to do with what I believe and what others believe and why we believe what we do believe. I want to analyse what makes people believe certain things as opposed to other things. Anyone who insists that they are being attacked because their beliefs are being argued with is just using that as a device to make people who disagree with them stop arguing. It's a classic tricksy debating tactic.

I suggest that anyone who thinks atheists should not talk about theism on a forum entitled Religon and Spirituality should get in touch with gransnet HQ and ask for and Atheism and Agnosticism and Religious Argument forum title and then they can avoid looking at what they know will be diabolical personal attacks arguments about beliefs and belief systems and what makes people tick with regard to theism or a lack of theism.

None of those! Humanist, but that is not a good definition. I can't say I live for other people, although I do care deeply about injustice and oppression.
I don't believe life is what you make it - most people with serious illnesses have not done anything to deserve them.
I am deeply suspicious when schools ask children to reveal such private information about their families - why do they want to know? If it is a catholic school, it is quite likely that some parents claimed to be devout catholics just to their children into the school.

By these criteria, I would say existentialist/humanist, but I'm not sure about those definitions!

email from GD who has just started Secondary school.

Hellooo Grandma
I wondered if you could quickly help with my homework!!!! for RE I need to make a survey on 10 friends or family of their philosophy of life so wanted to know what yours is:

Hedonist: life is full of fun and pleasure
Humanist: life is thinking of others and not yourself
Religionist: life is doing what god wants you to
Materialist: life is about gadgets and clothes etc
Nihilist: life is pointless!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Existentialist: life is what you make of it

pick the one that you are and tell me. I need to know as soon as possible

Decided I am Existentialist -never knew that.
Also added that I am a reverent agnostic with Buddhist leanings.-
That might cause some discussion as it is a RC school!

How would you answer your grandchildren?

It is interesting that what might almost be termed apologists for Christianity seem to be followers of St James – who appears to put good works before faith. "Faith by itself, if it has no work, is dead." Whereas the central doctrine of St Paul, who usually trumps everyone else, was justification by faith alone.

There has been no hostility towards any member in any post. You are confusing issues with organised religion with personal hostility against individual believers - and I am disappointed as I thought you were more than able to hold your own without making such accusations.
My very outspoken hostility towards organised religions is not based on what they did in the past, but on the evils they are inflicting now throughout the world, with their condemnation of homosexuals, and especially the catholic ban on contraception, abortion and divorce. My hostility towards other religions is based on their treatment of women as the property of men.

Triumphalism? What have we got to be triumphant about?

I suspect that, in the current political climate, Moslems encounter far more hostility towards them than Christians ever do in this country. Orthodox Jews encounter extreme aggression and hatred too.

Lilygran can you say more about this part of your post, please?

'.........while you non-believers enjoy the cut and thrust of what you think of as purely intellectual debate, it means something rather different to believers.'

I, personally, don't regard the debate as purely intellectual, and I have Christian friends who relish that aspect of the debate. Can you explain what is somethnig rather different for believers, please?