Does anyone like or support face-covering (hijab or burka)??

I don't think it would be practical to have a law saying you cannot go outside with your face covered, there would be too many exceptions, such as tooth ache on a freezing day, but isn't it is now a general rule that hoodies, caps and motor cycle helmets have to be removed when entering public buildings? Isn't it positive discrimination that burkas can be kept on, if, as has been said, they are a cultural rather than religious symbol?

Never seen any notices to this effect nfk
Have you ever been asked to remove your hoody/cap or helmet?

I think there was a spate of pc silliness some time ago, with pensioners being asked to leave a pub because they were wearing hooded windcheaters. I don't think it was ever enshrined in law - it was left to the common sense of the owners of businesses. Similarly, employers such as the NHS and education authorities need to be able to say what clothing is acceptable in the cause of health and safety.

I have seen notices in the lobbies of many business premises stating that helmets must be removed before entering - presumably those places get a lot of courier deliveries.

As previously stated in one of my earlier posts, I don't think France's new law where wearing a veil is an arrestable offence ideal, it seems to be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. However, if for example motor cycle helmets are required to be removed when entering public places then I think the same should apply to any face coverings. Also voluminous clothing can conceal anything and lets not forget a male terrorist fled the country disguised in a burka. We mustn't have these anomalies due to cultural reasons. I read somewhere that Italy had revoked some old law from their statute book saying covering the face was banned as this is what bandits did. The face, all of it, is crucially important when reading reactions. From what I gather many of the older Muslim immigrants to Britain are now on the third generation, but it seems to me that the older generation although they would have worn some of the garments we associate with their culture, didn't walk about covering their faces. This new found fervour on the part of third generation Muslim girls is often to demonstrate to us here, "this is where I stand" I don't think it helps their case. As for the newly arrived immigrants,I just feel sorry for them. I remember a while back, a couple I perceived to be Somalis, were entering the bank where I was waiting for my husband. The Somali wife was following behind her husband with a pushchair, the husband didn't hold the door open for her but let it swing in her face, I being near the door grabbed it and held it open for her as she had her hands full with the pushchair, I realise she didn't probably speak English but she gave me a real full on scowl, it kind of said to me "I'm a woman and therefore a second class citizen so don't try and change that". Personally I'd like these men to understand that they are living in a society that treats men and women as equals and there is no place in our country to accommodate their worst excesses.

I don't think the 3rd generation muslim women are going for a full cover up - mostly the young ones in places like London and Birmingham wear very glamorous headscarves, jewellery and makeup - very much their own UK asian style. The look lovely.
Lets face it, when was the last time most of us saw a fully covered up woman?
Once in a blue moon in this multicultural city.
And when we do, I suspect they are either new immigrants or tourists.

JessM, several times last week, possibly a new immigrant. Have also read numerous articles where British born and bred Muslim girls have said they wish to revert to wearing the veil, or even full burka. Yes many of the head scarves are colourful and often accompanied by heavy make up and Western clothes, just like Iran, where they try and wear the head scarves as far off their head as possible, but know they run the risk of being arrested if they go too far in not covering their hair!

I believe in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets recently pamphlets were being put up by hardline Muslim men telling their women they must cover up at all times and also making threats towards gay men.

Is there any proof that a male terrorist fled the country disguised in a burka or is this just one more urban myth? It might be logical to ask people to remove a face covering, such as motorcycle helmets or a niqab in a bank – but why would you do that in a library or a park?

Numerous articles? Really? Am i leading a sheltered life? I must be reading the wrong publications.
I also don't get - if you think the men are imposing this on women - you are going to punish the women?
And are we going to march wealthy tourists straight back to Heathrow?
Anyway - I am eagerly awaiting response to my thought experiment from OP.

I have been asked to remove my cycle helmet in banks. Never understood why. I should have thought someone entirely covered by a burka could be far more of a risk. Please note the word 'could'. Burkas have been banned in hospitals in Bangladesh because people pretending to be cleaners were caught stealing from patients.

Another odd question has just popped into my head. If* it is OK for the men in a country (or culture) to tell the women they have to cover their hair (and sometimes faces), why is it not OK for another culture to tell them not to cover their faces? I don't think asking people not to cover their faces in public is the same as telling people what to or what not to wear.

* We keep being told we have to 'respect' other cultural practices, which implies that it is OK for, say, Saudi men to make such rules for Saudi women. Personally, I don't think it's OK at all. If I had to live in Saudi Arabia, I'd obey whatever rules were imposed on me as a Western woman (sitting in back of car! not driving! etc) but I most certainly would NOT respect those rules. I would hold such rules in utter disrespect and obey them through gritted teeth. If Saudi women don't grit their teeth it's because they've been indoctrinated into sudmission from birth. Doesn't make the repression excusable. Burkas are symbols of repression. British moslems who want to 'revert' to repressive expressions of their culture are stupid to be pitied. It is a retrograde step.

If men wore burkas too, it wouldn't be quite so bad, but it still would be bad. It's the face-covering I can't get my head round. Don't have a problem with sacklike clothing.

There are some excellent crime stories by Zoe Ferraris .She was married to a Saudi I believe and her books are set in Saudia Arabia. Part of the interest is reading how a woman copes with her burka for eating/ walking and the life of ambitious young women struggling for what we would call normality. The suggestion that men walk ahead so they can warn them of hazards on the pavement amuses but horrifies at the same time. last year in york we were about to visit a deconsecrated(I think)church turned into a history centre and the porch was full of women in the full rig and as they looked at us. There was no telling if they were welcoming or hostile. Why I thought should they be hostile?-York/ sunshine /ancient church but I turned away.

JessM I don't know if you are leading a sheltered life, possibly you only read publications that turn a blind eye to some of the more pernicious practices carried out by SOME sectors of the Muslim population. I have seen programmes, possibly Dispatches, Channel 4 and read several articles regarding these matters, possibly the Times, or the DM, or even the Indepenent where Yasmin Allibah Brown has written articles on this subject as it is obviously close to her heart. You could google The Docklands and East London Advertiser re "Extremist Posters" declaring Sharia Law in that part of London also declaring Tower Hamlets a "gay free zone", one young man was fined when caught putting these posters up. Living in West London I remember seeing a report on this on a the local news programme that follows the news. Certain cultural attitudes held by SOME of the Muslim population are at odds with our own held beliefs. SOME Muslims have expressed a desire to have Sharia law here and maybe you would be happy with that. Personally I feel there are SOME aspects of conservative Muslim beliefs that are deeply at incompatible with Western culture and I for one do not want to see other laws introduced into our country by stealth, that's my opinion. Why would I want to punish the women? I believe some have no choice in what they wear, but would reiterate that I have seen British Muslim women interviewed where they have said they are choosing to dress in burkas and veils and even find it empowering.

Bags It is not okay for men in a country or culture to tell women how they must look, so I don't think you first paragraph has much in the way of valid question/argument. However, I do understand where you are coming from.

I do not respect some other cultural practices, but I also don't feel comfortable with another group of people (i.e. white Westerners) demanding a different cultural practice. I hope with time and experience practices like wearing the niqab and burka will change without unwarranted interference. Of course, I could be wrong.

Something that is niggling me is the opening line of the OP
"NONE, as in NONE, of my friends can abide seeing women in the street with their face covered."
Whether I feel this is divisive or something which I see so rarely it really doesn't bother me, is all I feel qualified to comment on - frankly what my , or anybody else's friends think is not relevant.

I see many women in traditional costume in London and Birmingham although fewer here in MK, but I can't say I find it threatening. However I deplore a religion or a culture which subjugates women and deep down I suppose I feel that if western women are meant to cover up and respect the dress code in Muslim countries, then it is not unfair to say "Please uncover your face," in certain situations in this country.

Agree with absentgrana esp.first sentence, last para.

absentgran the man that fatally shot PWC Sharon Beryshnivsky (apologies probably not right spelling) fled the country in a burka, should have said criminal as opposed to terrorist, but nevertheless illustrates the point of how anyone could conceal themselves under a burka.

I have the same hope as you, absent – that vile repression of women will die out – but I think it will require a kind of interference: warranted interference, namely education.

I think the op asks the wrong question - i.e. does anyone defend it? I abhor all expressions of female subjugation and I consider Saudi Arabia to be a totally uncivilised country with a medieval attitude to women. The UK government turns a blind eye to the abuse of servants brought to the UK because it does not want to offend the uber-rich princes. We are not unaware of forced marriages, honour killings, and domestic violence in many parts of the Muslim community. We don't defend any of that. However, does that mean we should actually compel women to wear certain types of clothing? Is that not just one more type of discrimination?
We could also look very hard at the UK attitude to women - there are now only four women in the cabinet. There are 501 men MPs and 144 women. Is this because women don't want to be in positions of power, or because the system makes it too difficult for them?
People rarely give up power unless they are forced - Britain did not give her colonies independence out of a sense of justice. I believe most Muslim men support the poor treatment of women - otherwise, they could change it. But why should they?
Some silly young women apparently think feminism is no longer needed because women have achieved complete equality. What planet are they on?

Absolutely, Bags and that is why the Taliban and like fundamentalists are so unwilling to tolerate the education of girls. I would fight for education for girls, but liberation has to come from within, we cannot impose it from outside.

Bags I couldn't agree more. Education is the right sort of interference. Putting prohibitive laws in place is not. But one is much easier – and ticks the boxes – than the other.

Yes, you're right. But in circumstances where everyone else has to show their face, burka-wearing people should have to as well. One law for all.

Hmm. Six pages of posts in 2 days! Something is burning on this topic.

Great Nan, I agree with everything you say! We do need to look at the way our own society treats us, and perhaps deal with that before condemning other societies and practices. I do feel that when cultural practices are vilified by others it inclines people who belong to that culture to become more entrenched in their views and practices as a defence against those who would condemn it.

And, although I hate the covering of women's faces, I do have a sympathy with Muslim women who say that traditional dress is a defence against the continual attention of men.

If we look at the Jimmy Savile thread we can see how vulnerable young women were and are, and how exposed they / we are / were as a consequence of the zeitgeist which expected 'sexy' fashionable dress and gave a licence to men to exploit this.