Does anyone like or support face-covering (hijab or burka)??

The difference, though, is that as women in a western society, we have a choice – lots of choices, actually. We don't have to dress in unreasonable ways. We actually have more choice than men do as far as clothes go. (How many men walk about in dresses?) We're also 'allowed' to drive and go out without male escorts and other astonishing things as if – really as if – we were as good as the men and should be allowed the same freedoms. It's astonishing

In short, we can, and some of us do, tell the bloody zeitgeist where to get off. Oppressed women in oppressive cultures don't have that choice.

We can now, Bags, and although it may seem as if Muslim societies are much the same, there is as wide a variety of belief and practice as there is in other societies.

But some moslem women apparently have no freedom from oppressive men. I'm objecting to that, not to reasonable beliefs and practices.

We are agreed then.

I would like to reiterate my earlier point that I have some sympathy with France's law banning face coverings in public places, just to be clear that I am not advocating the same law here before I make my next point - which is that sometimes the law has to rule against things that are patently wrong, and not wait for attitudes to change. For example, if we had waited for attitudes towards homosexuality to change we would have been waiting for a very long time. The law changed in stages in the face of strong opposition and changes in attitudes have followed. Education can sometimes take too long to prevent the suffering of those affected by the particular issue.

Well said, nightowl.

Thank you Ana

Having spent the day in London where I saw many women in various styles of traditional Muslim dress, causing me to question my views again, I confirmed to myself that I have absolutely no issue with women wearing the headscarf and often looking quite beautiful and very glamorous. I could not however feel anything other than outrage at the fact that some women are forced/ feel a need to cover their entire faces. And what about the radical imam who suggested that women do not need to have both eyes uncovered, one is sufficient and will reduce the temptation of men even further? Utter madness.

isaletc are you going to answer my questions?
What would your law with British Muslim women who decided to cover themselves ? Come clean now.
I am becoming increasingly convinced that you are just trying to stir.

I thoroughly agree with all you have said Nightowl. I would imagine in a generation the daughters of women in Frace who wore a burka would be relieved that they were not expected to wear one.

France

Yes, legislation often has to come before a change in attitude.

I would just like to repeat that Islam does not require women to cover their faces!
The Koran does advise women to cover their hair as a protection against molestation (which says much about The Prophet's opinion of men and their weaknesses) but then Judaism and Christianity also required women to cover their hair.
Someone mentioned extremist mullahs preaching that women only need to have one eye uncovered: that actually comes originally from Judaism not Islam! In Judaism, the veil was seen as a status symbol, and in fact prostitutes were forbidden from wearing the veil! The wearing of wigs instead of a veil evolved as Jews settled across Europe, and it was simpler, as they assimilated, as a wig did the job but did not make them stand out. In the UK now, it is just Hassidic Jews who cover up to this extent. (The "extremists", for those who like to think in those terms).
Some Christian sects - for example the Amish - still requires women to cover their hair. ("Extremists" again!)
And on the topic of "extremists", why do people automatically add 'muslim' or 'Islamic' or 'arab' to that word?
Where not The Crusades an example of Christian extremism? Is not the occupation of Palestine by Israel Judaist extremism? What about "The Troubles" in Ireland? All have been about religion, and the desire of one group to force their opinions on others. Evangelical Christians in America can be pretty extreme too!
In all cases, it is not about the doctrine of a particular religion, but about the interpretation by minority groups within that religion who desire control over the masses, and by some weird reasoning processes come up with extreme interpretations of what is written. Throughout human history some have tried, and often succeeded, in dominating others by imposing rigid rules upon their lives. Men have often succeeded in dominating women in this way, and the all-enveloping cover is one method employed. The clitoridectomy is another. But does that mean that male circumcision is an attempt at female dominance over the male?
Apologies if I seem to be going off on a bit of a 'stream of consciousness' thing-ummy here, but what I guess I'm getting at is that throughout the history of human-kind, some groups have tried to suppress or dominate others, usually out of fear, and the ongoing battles, which ebb and flow, are as strong now as they ever were. Just because we are now in the 21st century does not mean that we have overcome these primitive urges, much as we'd like to think we have. Races, tribes, nationalities, religion, gender. They are all reasons to engender fear in others, unfortunately.
I really don't care what other people think or what they believe. I am perfectly happy to let everyone hold their own beliefs, practice their own religion, live how they want to live and dress as they want to dress. If those within a particular community are unhappy with their lot, then it is their place, not mine, to instigate change. I acknowledge that in many situations this is extremely difficult to do (Afghanistan for example). It is nonetheless not my place to impose what I consider to be right upon them. I can express my opinions, but at all times I will respect their right to disagree, and I respect their right to hold opinions and to live in a way totally opposed to my way of life. This is why I hold the opinion that if women chose to wear the burka or niqab in our country, they should be free to do so. It may seem at odds that I also believe that non-Muslim women should dress modestly when in Muslim countries. I chose to show respect for the host nation by being sensitive to their beliefs, but I also acknowledge that many are not that sensitive, and chose to stick to their beliefs or exercise what they see to be their rights even when it is at loggerheads with the host nation.
Surely tolerance is the sign of an advanced society? And with so many wildly diverse belief systems and lifestyles around the world, how can we possibly say that our way is right and everyone else is wrong? Embrace our differences dear fellow-humans. Oh, if only that would happen!! Then we would really be civilised.
I'd like to finish by saying that I do not approve of religions. They are divisive, and dogma serves only to detract from true spirituality. Dogma causes wars, and takes humans further away from their spiritual origins. You don't have to agree with me. That is your right and I respect your right to your own opinions in the same way as I respect your right to wear a bikini or a burkini

Difficult one this. Just been in Doha for a couple of weeks. First time in Muslim country! Grandkids seem to have taken it all in their stride. Dd thought they had not noticed much but then when playing shops, they borrowed all mums scarves and bits of cloth and draped them over their heads and fastened them so they had long robes on.
The variations are immense. Very international community due to all the construction going on. A lot of women wear the full burka and swim in the sea completely covered. Last night at Eid was the first time I had seen a group of women all eating together. They ate very slowly due to the fact they had to lift the veil for every mouthful and watch their sleeves when passing food. I would have run screaming to the hills as am a naked as possibly kinda girl.

They looked very happy and were jabbering away to each other. The funniest thing I found was that the men sat at a different table and every time the head guy wanted to say something he had to get up and go over to talk and then go back to his male family.

There is every kind of variation of cover up with a lot of the younger ones in skinny jeans and killer heels who wear the scarf with full makeup.

I do find the full burka intimidating and there are some obvious glares of disapproval even though we have tried very hard to conform to their official approved dress code. However I have deliberately looked some women in the eye and smiled and quite often got a crinkling of the eyes back so I hope I have done my best to win some approval for westerners in this burgeoning city.

With the determination to make this a destination place for tourism and the World Cup coming I can see this having a real influence here but will that result in a backlash? Don't know.

Ooh Rinky I don't suppose your grandchildren went to see 'Dora The Explorer' in Doha this week did they??
My youngest daughter is in it. Last shows were today. I'm picking her up from Heathrow tomorrow (Next stop Egypt)
She spent a few years in the ME as a child/teenager and is familiar with it, but the rest of the cast were terrified about what it might be like over there!
I'm sure will have an interesting chat with her tomorrow about their experiences!

I don't respect any human's right to subjugate , oppress or torture another, and I don't give a damn if it is their 'culture'
.I am equally opposed to all religions that do not accord equal rights to all.

I spoke to a Glaswegian who hated a work mate with ferocity. What was the crime of the other? He supported the 'wrong' bit of Christianity. The first man had no idea of the differences between the two sects - he said it was....'Er, the pope, and that.....' I am quite sure the other man felt equal enmity towards him. 400 years and counting........

I agree Greatnan culture is often brought up as an excuse. Some people say children should stay in orphanages in their home country and not be adopted because their culture is more important. I really cannot agree with the reasoning that culture or religion comes before a person's rights. There can't be any rights for those who have to (but don't choose for themselves) cover themselves because some person, religion or culture deems that it is the proper thing for them to do.

Just as an afterthought.....does anyone know why most burkas are this solid black? I know they wear that rather pretty blue in Afghanistan, Pakistani women wear lovely vibrant colours and in some African countries women wear beautiful colourful turbans and loose dresses which I think are their interpretation of the dress code so why this awful black? I think it is mainly the colour which is the problem with our feelings of being threatened and intimidated.

The men don't come across as threatening in their traditional white garb....they look quite peaceful actually.
Food for thought

No NannaAnna. They did not see it...pity... There have been many changes and problems with houses and the job in the five months they have been here so poor Dd not quite up to organising trips to theatre yet. Apart from youngest at 20 months being a one girl wrecking crew and demolition expert, its quite enough getting to grips with the ...scary...driving and the heat. Find the culture quite tolerant overall and we think the city is marvellous and will be stunning in a few years.
Just wish poor old blighty had the money to do it this fast.

The traditional dress (not traditional for women from the Punjab but being worn now by their daughters and granddaughters) is also a defence against a secular society which is trying to impose non-traditional standards and behaviour.

JessM I feel that you're getting very aggressive in your tone with me. Doing so is not at all in the general spirit of this forum.

British muslim woman who "decide" to wear a full veil in public, I guess I'd fine them. I said I'd adopt the law in France, they must have a solution for French muslim women who decide to, or are coerced into, wearing a full veil or even worse a burka in public.

Why are you convinced this is a wind-up or some kind of effort to "stir"? It's not, just accept it.

Given the treatment of women in some Muslim communities, I think I would prefer the secular standards any day.

Before 1870 in the UK anything owned by a woman – through inheritance, gift, wages, even copyright – became her husband's when she married. The Married Women's Property Act of that year allowed her to keep her own wages. It wasn't until 1882 – only 130 years ago – that all her property stayed as her property when she married.

It wasn't until 1928 that all women over 21 were allowed to vote with no preconditions about their owning property.

In the past week the UK has just been demoted two places (down to 16 I think) in the European register of gender quality.

I think we need to be a little less self-congratulatory about gender equality in the UK.

If a standard is good – for example, treating women with respect, treating them like the equals of men, giving them the same rights as men, and so forth – its 'secularity' is only relevant if the secular version of the standard is better or worse than the non-secular version. As far as good, ethical standards are concerned, I have yet to hear of a secular one that is not the equal or the superior of a non-secular one.

I agree, absent, which is why I mentioned the imbalance in Parliament - but I would still prefer to be a woman in the UK or France than in Pakistan, Saudi, etc. The struggle is by no means over but with girls/women doing so much better than boys/men in almost all academic areas I am hopeful for the future. (And I don't want to see the dominance of men replaced by the dominance of women - I want every human being to be treated equally on their merits.)