Does anyone like or support face-covering (hijab or burka)??

I agree, absent, that there is still some way to go to achieve perfect gender equality in Britain, but I don't think there's any harm done by congratulating ourselves on what we have achieved, especially when compared to countries which don't appear even to have any desire to achieve gender equality.

BTW, I think there is still work to be done here and elsewhere to achieve gender equality for men as well as for women.

NannaAnna is obviously knowledgeable on this subject and I'm with her all the way - until the covering of faces in this country. I think it's extremely bad manners, if nothing else, for British visiting in Muslim countries to wander around town showing considerably more flesh than they would in a UK shopping mall. They should not do it. It's the custom of the country. It's insulting. Therefore I consider it to be bad manners for Muslims to cover themselves to completely here. Same thing.

it does anoy me slightly, when I have to removed my Bike helmet etc..it is a performance..as have to first take my glasses off then my helemt then put my glasses back on, then the reverse when I leave the bank/petrol staition etc, there are a lot pf places we are not allowed in with our helmets on as they cannot see who is inside them! but it's just one of them little gripes, I can suppose I can live with it.

I have so much enjoyed reading all these posts, and it is so difficult not to agree with everyone! I like to think I am very open minded, and each to his own is my attitude, but I do sometimes feel that we are a little too liberal in this country in fear of possibly being accused of discrimination of some sort. The variety of cultures is interesting, and we are now a more colourful society which might bring better understanding for the future generations. However, being quite deaf, I do so hate to have faces covered, because I can lip read a little which is as helpful for the person I am talking to, as it is for me.

Going back to absent's comment about us being self-congratulatory about gender equality. I find it helpful to think not of "our" culture and "their" culture (whoever the "our" and "their" might refer to) as separate, but as all part of human culture. Just as in some parts of the world pretty much everyone has access to clean drinking water and in other parts very few people have this, I like to look at Human achievements in bringing closer gender equality to parts of the world but not others. In every aspect of human life we don't all develop at the same rate, for multiple reasons. Water equality, gender equality, voting equality, education equality.... you name it – the variations in human achievement on any subject will vary across the world. That doesn't make it wrong to say an achievement in one area is good, or better than, a lack of achievement in the same subject in another area.

nfk, I like your comment about manners. I agree.

Something that has been bothering me: should we be tolerant towards intolerance? Yes we pride ourselves on being a tolerant culture/ country but how far should that tolerance extend? And at what point do we then become intolerant? Too early for me to get my head around this one

I'm not sure about the names of the different head gear, but I was watching a young girl talk on the telly last night about the lack of religion in this country. She looked quite lovely with just the scarf on, but it crossed my mind at the time that most muslim women have black hair anyway, so covering their hair doesn't stop anyone having a rough idea of their overall appearance, whereas here one doesn't quite know how someone actually looks if they wear a scarf. A friend who worked abroad for many years said it was quite liberating that, as a women she wasn't being judged by her appearance [find that hard to agree with other than it must be quite good on a bad hair day or when a spot suddenly appears on your face just as you're going out]. But, something upset me slightly a few years back [so much so that it stuck in my mind to this day]. I was in Ikea at the same time as a muslim man and various female members of his family, all with head and faces covered. That didn't bother me, but what did was that they all walked several paces behind him and, when we seemed to be in the same space he seemed to expect me to move out of the way for him. I found that very annoying. I guess it isn't the headgear that bothers me but what it represents ie separating women from men and regarding them as subserviant in some way.

in the mid 1990s I was a member of the Ipswich Anti-racism Committee, here in Queensland Australia, in order to oppose a racist MP, Pauline Hanson. We got talking about racism in general one evening, and I brought up the fact we were all against gender discrimination as well as racial discrimination, but what if a person's race or culture means that they discriminate against women? Is it OK then to oppose such people and cultures, or would we be being racist?

We came to the decision that if anyone's actions are in defiance of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, then we are not being racist to object and oppose them. Cultural issues are not and should never be an excuse to discriminate against anyone. So if we know that a woman is being encased in cloth against her will, or being forced into a marriage she does not want, or if anyone is being demonised for being gay, then we should object.

PS
We won against Hanson - she never got elected to any public office again.

Thanks for that Joan it does help me with the question ^^ that's been bothering me. It does seem to suggest that however tolerant we think we are we are all intolerant of intolerance at some point. Need to lie down and think about it

I live by the sea and frequently see muslim families enjoying themselves on the beach. It does sadden me to see the men and children in swim wear paddling or swimming in the sea. Their womenfolk sometimes in a top to toe covering unable to join in.
However, I support their right to wear it, no matter how I might feel about it. I supported the nuns in my last school who at that time were covered top-to-toe with just their faces showing.
I worked with a girl who wore a hijab[scarf] and jiibab[cloak] and as somone else has already said on this forum, was very fashionable under it all. I asked her how she felt about it. Her reply was that it was part of her tradition and religion. I support that. It's quite odd but there are girls whose families don't dress tradionally but they have chosen to do so.
I think the grandchildren of these girls will assimilate so much into our society it will probably be vastly reduced. Afterall, it isn't the law here, we don't have draconian laws if you don't wear it etc. Look at our immigrants from India in particular. As a child you never saw an Indian woman in anything but a sari. However, in this country a huge amount of British Indian girls are super fashionable and successful. Times changes things and I think this will happen here too.

Agree with your last paragraph dorset - all things being equal this is not a big problem and it will probably fade away.
On culture - it is not so long - just in our GGMs days - since UK women were expected to cover their bodies, arms, legs, feet, hands, heads when appearing in public. And sometimes they wore semi-transparent veils as well.

I do not accept your accusation of aggression isthatall - you start a controversial thread. Then you become even more controversial, saying that you would deport women who walk down the street with their faces covered, and then you unwilling to discuss how on earth you would do this if UK citizens or tourists were involved. You make a statement that, to some people, might be deeply offensive and then refuse to discuss it. If you want to start debates and throw verbal bombshells into them, then you cannot expect people not to challenge you on those statements. So there are two conclusions we can draw, one is that you are just being provocative without meaning it. The other is that you reserve the right to make such statements and then not respond. That's fine. We can each draw our own conclusions. Thank you for starting such an interesting debate.

But India has always been ahead of it's time when it comes to women and liberation; weren't they the first country to have a woman prime minister? [the second in fact; thanks wikipedia].

I'm not at all clear about the basis for the objection to Moslem women, educated and brought up here, who choose to wear head or face coverings. One argument seems to be that we don't like to see veiled women (except for nuns - not clear about that, either). I would prefer not to see people out in the street in clothes that look like underwear or nightwear. Can I have a law against it, please? Another seems to be that it is an example of male supremacy. The women I have spoken to about this say they have chosen to dress like that of their own free will, nothing to do with what their husbands, fathers or brothers say. There are bad things happening to women all over the world but that doesn't seem to be a good reason to impose restrictions on the free choice of one group of British women.

Lilygran Although "taking the veil" was an expression that meant becoming a nun, I don't think they cover their faces.

JessM take a chill pill

I'm not sure I believe the statement that women choose to cover their faces of their own free will. I suggest that they have been indoctrinated from a very early age to regard excessive 'modesty' in women as a good thing and that, because of that, they 'choose' to be among what might be called "the most modest". I think this because it is, in global human terms, such an odd thing to do to cover your face for modesty's sake. What is there to be 'modest' about? Also, why is it only Moslem women who do this, even though it is not a requirement of their religion? Please, somebody, correct me if other people (including men of course) routinely cover their faces in public for any reason other than protection from severe weather or for crimina/dubiousl purposes. Until someone comes up with a truly rational explanation for the phenomenon, which includes an acceptance that human head hair and faces do not need to be covered for some silly notion about 'modesty', I shall continue to think that it's a weird thing to do, it's a terrible thing to make someone else do, and I look forward to its speedy demise as rationality among human beings increases with wider education.

Interesting response isthis Quite chilled thanks.

The Tuareg cover their faces.

Hear hear Bags definitely [like] emoticon

And, as has been mentioned on another thread, they are suffering from Vit D[?] deficiency due to being covered up.

The Tuareg face sand storms. Not many of those in Bradford.
It is extremely patronising to tell another member to 'take a chill pill' - we are intelligent adults, not teenagers. We must conclude that the OP has no valid response to make when questioned.
So far, nobody has been able to say why the female face/hair should have to be hidden. Saying 'It is their tradition' is not an answer. Why is it their tradition? Nuns, presumably, enter an order voluntarily now (I am not sure that was the case in Ireland a couple of generations ago) so their decision to cover their hair is irrelevant.
The fear of being thought racist stopped police, teachers and social workers protecting hundreds of girls from abuse, either by their own families in the case of Asian girls, and from Asian men in the case of ethnically British girls.

Exactly, G. Tuareg face-coverings are for protection from the elements, not for some silly notion of 'modesty'. Keeping sand out of your hair and eyes and nose and mouth is a very sensible thing to do. Anyone with any sense would do it during a sandstorm.

Just as sensible people like me wear midge nets over our heads if we have to brave midge storms in Scotland.

Bags Tuareg men and those of some other West African tribes, such as the Hausa, wear a full head and face veil with only the eyes uncovered from the mid-twenties traditionally to protect them against evil spirits. Of course it also protects them from abrasion during sandstorms. However, the veil is never removed in company including among members of the family. The women do not wear veils. Perhaps evil spirits don't attack them or they have some other way of warding them off.

And very fetching you look too, Bags I am sure. Could you attach a fascinator to it to complete the effect?