I can't get my head round this

Startdust is a pretty good word, Bags, whether you think that God created Adam out of clay or that the universe began with a speck of matter formed from sheer energy in the big bang.

...and I think so too, feetle

cross out a t

stardust

feetle, agreed. And all of it is ancient, rearranged startdust.

feetle

And isn't it nice to know that all life on Earth is related? Auntie virus, Great Uncle Bacterium, the Midges and Woodlice, the daffodils, oaks and sardines... all members of the extended Life family.

Well, I think so, anyway.

Woodlice....

And midges

And bacteria.

Viruses are pretty successful.

Good question, anno

How do you know he's pretending, Soop?

Our cat, Rory, spends all day pretending to think...

That's allright, lily. I expect there are a few other species that are more successful in their niches than us. So what? That doesn't detract from human achievement and human understanding, nor even from human lack of understanding which, of course, is still huge. Again, so what? All the more reason to keep on trying in our various ways.

Oh the cats have it all sussed out.

That doesn't mean they don't think. Now if it were cats......

We do try to understand, and we can build on what has been done by others to add to what is understood. That is where we differ from the other primates, who pass on their knowledge about practical things - what not to eat, how to look after your baby - but not their thoughts.

Not as successful as cockroaches! And we have such mighty intellects that we understand all there is to know about everything.

I suppose they serve a purpose of you're bothered, but those of us who see no purpose for them don't miss them Free and easy and proud of our human achievements, which continue to increase the longer we exist.

We're a success story, us.

What I believe is that God(s) are created by Man in his own image. And sometimes He chucks in a female deity for good measure.

Isn't there a bit about "God created man in his own image" ? Then surely he must have included an ability to observe and reason?

I am intrigued that people should say that the deity is not opaque - why then for thousands of years have people been struggling to decide whether there is a god? - arguing with each other - postulating different gods - philosophers have agonised about this since man first appeared. Definitely totally opaque I would say!

Any deity(should such an entity exist) has a choice as to whether they make themselves clearly known to their creations or whether they stick in the background - I think the choice is clear!

I find the argument about the weakness of humanity and the limitations of our understanding unconvincing. The being that created us (if we assume that is what happened) had/has a choice about how we are. Making the choice to create us so enfeebled in mind that we cannot understand what he/she/it is on about does seem to me to be pretty darned perverse and pointless!

And for those of us who are Christians, we do not find Jesus Christ opaque at all.

Philosophy and theology are difficult, so are physics, chemistry or other academic disciplines. That doesn't make them opaque.

The reality of 'Christ with us' is central to the life of a Christian - opacity doesn't enter the margins.

It could be that God is not choosing to make him/herself opaque simply that we aren't able to understand a mind that could create galaxies.

I do not think it is a debate that can be resolved at all; and that is one of the reasons why I have no belief in a deity. If such a being existed why would it choose to make itself so opaque? - unless we assume that this being is simply perverse and enjoys watching people struggle to make sense of things. Now that truly is scary!