Are religions unfair to women?

There are so many assumptions in this post that it's hard to know where to start.

1 do we pick and choose which aspects of 'imported' cultures we approve of?

We can approve or disapprove of what we want. Most of us observe a mix of cultural practices, it's only those which transgress the law or deny human rights which which should be matters where society intervened.

2 Pakistani men grooming young girls.

Yes this is totally abhorrent. But anyone who saw Channel 4 news last night will have seen the Deputy Commisioner for Children explaining that at the moment the huge numbers of Pakistani men convicted or awaiting trial is a consequence of that demographic being targetted at the moment. Every other cultural group has been found to be equally prone to this crime. You can still see his programme on Catchup.

3 'We in the west have moved on'.

Have we? In many ways, of course, women are much freer in the west than in many Eastern countries. But this is often a class and economic phenomenon. I have lived and worked in Pakistan, teaching in a Pakistani University, and the lives of my women colleagues were very similar to mine. They were equally dismayed by women in the tribal areas to the north being confined in veils and other aspects of male oppression. But equally, they were appalled at western women abusing alcohol, casually conceiving children outside marriage and the lack of respect and honour for old people. It's all relative.

4 'Should 'they' conform to our ideas of right and wrong?'.

Any immigrant to any country should obey the laws of the land and conform to the everything in the UNHCR. Transgressions should be vigorously pursued and prosecuted.

I also believe that we should look at the Universal Declaration of Human Rights when deciding what is acceptable and what is not.

Yes, Joan. That is what I meant and should have typed!

Very judgmental to assume conceiving children outside of marriage is 'wrong'! It isn't 'wrong'. Nor is it entirely the 'fault' of women.

Also, the talk of lack of respect for old people. Yes, there is some here, but I bet that exists everywhere. Cultures that suppress freedom of expression just hide it.

I think there would be just as much alcohol abuse in 'dry' countries if people could get the stuff. Bet there are dodgy practices with other dubious substances.

Besides, if honouring someone old just because they are old means I have to do what my mother-in-law says, they can stuff that 'honour' somewhere uncomfortable. That, I suspect, is what they mean.

Bags, I commented about the response of Pakistani academic women to what they perceive to be some cultural practices of western women. Right and wrong werent mentioned. In just the same way as some western women are judgemental about cultural practices in some eastern countries.

You said they were "dismayed". That implies disapproval or distaste, and why would anyone disapprove unless they thought something wrong? It wouldn't 'dismay' them if they had neutral feelings of the rights and/or wrongs of the issue.

I feel I have a right to be judgmental about FGM, and about women being prevented from living free lives, prevented from being educated, married while still children, etc. These are universal human rights judgements. The fact that they are mostly associated with certain cultures makes the judgements seem culturally biassed, but it isn't bias that drives such judgements, unless you call wanting people to be treated with equal fairness biassed. If that's the case, then I'm proud to be biassed.

I think biased should only have one s.

Indeed. And in many ways I agreed with them about some matters. The abuse of alcohol for example. And, having lived and worked in Pakistan for some years, I was greatly impressed by the care given to the elderly, not by women only, but by all the family, men and boys and girls as well.

The fact is that so many of these matters are inextricably bound up with the history and culture of a country and its peoples that making judgements about what is right and wrong all too easily falls into the way a person's thinking has been moulded by their own background and culture and circumstances.

I think that many people from many different cultures and backgrounds are often quick to make judgements about other cultures from their own perspective. And that applies to people in every country in the world.

I've just read you last post which crossed with mine. And I totally agree. As I said in my last but three I think. The long one!

In the UK, conceiving children outside of marriage was, only forty or so years ago, frowned upon and women who had "illegitimate" babies were treated very badly. I certainly wouldn't wish to return to those days.

I think it is important to respect people and treat them properly whatever their age. However, the concept of "honouring" elderly/older people is one that has tended to be subverted. Young newly married women coming into a family are often expected to demonstrate honour by becoming a skivvy. In extreme circumstances, where it is felt this "honour" has not been sufficiently met, such women are subjected to beatings by their families. I have worked with young Asian women in this country and some of them were intimidated by and frightened of their mothers in law. This is not the sort of honour that I have any respect for.

I agree there is a class and economic element to the amount of control people have, whatever country they come from. In the UK, women (and men) from more deprived backgrounds do have less control over their lives than those from more affluent/educated backgrounds. But working class women in the UK aren't confined to the home or only allowed out with a male chaperone, or denied education and medical treatment.

Having said that, I agree that in the west there are other, less obvious, tyrannies that affect the lives of women (and men) - in particular the worship of profit and the commercialisation of sexuality. However, I don't believe a return to the "good old days", as far as its approach to sexuality was concerned, is something to be desired.

I would think that any religion being practised in this country would have to stay in accordance with the laws of this country. And I believe the powers that be endeavour to make sure this happens. What happens in other countries is a different thing, and, sadly, out of our control.

What about Sharia law being practised in this country? That isn't in accordance with the laws of this land and, in my opinion, that is an abomination because Sharia laws are not as good as ours where women's rights are concerned. I'm biased in favour of one law for all within my country as well. Proud of that bias too because these 'biases' of mine and judgements about the quality of laws from other cultures, stem from education and are in support of fairness and justice.

I don't agree that it's "all relative", miceelf. Some laws simply are fairer and more just than others. I'm standing up and getting counted for holding that view.

Oh, and if Sharia law isn't culturally bound up with Islam, please explain to me why Moslems want it in the UK? It's Islam that's unfair to women. My believing that makes me an Islamophobe if you like (I'm terrified of Islam!) but not a racist.

Anyone having sharia law practised on them in this country has access to the law of the land via the police. Who have nous to take it seriously.

I'm not sure they all do have access. I think vulnerable people are being abused by bad Sharia laws and are not getting to the "proper" courts. Some of the Sharia court cases one hears about shouldn't be in a court anyway because British law has not been broken, only so-called 'cultural' laws. Who loses out when 'cultural' laws are enforced by those with the power (men)?

I'm not sure what more can be done. The police are there. What do you suggest?

If the sharia law they are breaking is one which keeps them from contacting the non-sharia police, then they will fall through both sets of rules and be supported by neither.

Surely the punishment to be doled out will be against UK law?

I don't actually understand the last post.

What I suggest is banning Sharia Law 'courts' in the UK.

If you are saying that women are being permanently imprisoned in this country, then we can only hope that they are discovered.

Your knowledge of the darker side of human existence is, however, likely to be greater than mine.

Well, I'm for banning any punishments that go against UK law.

Bags, I'm NOT talking about law. I'm talking about different cultural practices. I thought I'd made that clear in the posts I've put on.
Sharia law has no place in this country, and I have never suggested otherwise.

I don't disagree with you about the matters you pointed to in your post above. Unless, it's not me you were responding to but Jo numbers.

Matters that are relative include such things as attitudes to alcohol, family cohesion, smoking and a host of others.