Is it hypocrisy for Jewish communities to erect an eruv?

I suppose it's just another example of 'moving the goalposts'.

I only exist because an orthodox Jew decided to ignore a few rules. You see, my Gran took lodgings with an orthodox Jewish family in Liverpool just over 100 years ago. She had run away from her protestant non-conformist father who was ultra religious, as she had decided she was atheist, so i suppose it was a rather unfortunate choice of lodgings. But they needed her for the usual Sabbath little jobs - lighting the fire, turning on and off the lights etc.

In 1910 Mum was born, out of wedlock, a fact she hid from us all her life. The matriarch of the family clearly looked after Gran, and used to take Mum to the synagogue, explaining she was her granddaughter. Mum has some vague early memories of the singing, and remembers speaking Yiddish. Of course, Gran never married the bloke - she married another when Mum was 3. Mum's birth certificate never turned up, and the details we know, have not led to finding her details on genealogy sites.

But I'm sure the orthodox teachings were the reasons Gran never married her lover: she would never have converted, being an atheist, and he probably would never have married her anyway -some orthodox Rabbis don't accept converts.

So his naughtiness resulted in my Mum, and eventually me. Thank god for rule-breakers!!!

What a fascinating story Joan

Yes, a really interesting tale, Joan
My mother worked in the garment trade in Manchester, which used to be almost wholly owned and run by Jews. She became very friendly with one girl and was invited to join her family for the Sabbath meal. She loved the whole atmosphere and used many Hebrew words (not all of them polite!) As my mother's family were Irish catholics, she would have been in big trouble if her priest had found out!
I am fascinated by the different cultures that co-exist happily in Britain. There was a very good series about the Beth Din on TV. A rabbi had the sole job of visiting all food suppliers and making sure they were producing their goods so they remained kosher
I did not realise until I saw the series that Jewish women wear wigs except with their family. It seems they share the Islamic belief that the sight of a woman's hair will inflame desire!

Not all Jewish women, Greatnan, only the very Orthodox. If you are interested in modern Jewry you might find

The Club - the Jews of modern Britain by Stephen Brook published by Constable, reprinted 1996, of interest.

There are discussions in place about 'installing' (for want of a better word) an eruv close to me in Bushey. I was just interested in the 'whys' and 'wherefores' never having heard of such a thing before. The general feeling among Jewish friends was it was ridiculous. However, 'the local papers' have got hold of the story and now it has become a real issue. Be interesting to see the final outcome!

Thanks , Micelf - I will try to find the book, as I am interested in all aspects of different cultures.

Well I read the JC article and all I can say is, what sort of god would want a disabled person or a young mother not to be able to get to a place of worship? It just does my head in!!

There is a big difference between what 'God wishes' and how it is interpreted by certain religious group.

The bible says that on the seventh day God rested and it was believed that what he created should do so to. That is where rules and ordnances come in that are not what 'God wishes' but how what he did was to be interpreted by humans.

Lets be honest most of us given a rule wander round its limits pushing them, finding the weak points, pushing what it means, and people born into religious communities are much the same (it is the converts who are meticulously upright in their obedience to rules) The 'I like cutting the grass on Sunday, I find it restful and I contemplate the wonders of God as I do it' syndrome. The origins of the Eruv, I understand, date back as far as when the ordnance of doing nothing on the Sabbaath was also developed. It was a way, I suppose, of making boundaries clear in every way.

Every rule we have now has to have the sanctity and blessing of legal backing or Act of Parliament and that is no different to the way that societies before democracy and law making institutions insisted that every law they drew up for the welfare of man, like having at least one day a week off to rest and relax, was promulgated as being the interpretation of the will of God, giving it sanctity and blessing and making people unwilling to breech it.

I find the 'rules, rites and mores' of all religions and sects fascinating!
Many of them actually had believable or logical bases!
A lot today are superseded by modern technology and therefore are unnecessary!
So why can't religions and sects( what is the difference?') update themselves?

This Eruv issue is really only practiced by relatively small communities of very religiously orthodox Jews, who because of these laws, tend to congregate in some areas of Britain in order to be able to uphold this level of observance.

I previously lived in Ilford in The London Borough of Redbridge and there were a lot of Jewish families in that area. A lot of these settlers had fled the pogroms of Russia in the late 1800s early 1900s and moved from the deep East End as the areas of what is now LB Waltham Forest and LB Redbridge expanded in the 1920s/30s!
They probably started out as very Orthodox but have adapted to a more liberal outlook, if they are even strongly religious at all. There was no strict Sabbath observance where I lived but the serious traditions and major festivals were upheld just as we do Christmas.

It's another religions tradition that does not impinge on us at all. In essence I would think its nothing for non Jews in particular to get worked up about and probably impossible for non Jews to understand with out a good background understanding of their religious tradition.

I was trying hard not to be rude but put bluntly, it's "now't to do with us!

Thinking about the above, I have this slight temptation to start a thread with the title.

Is it hypocritical for non practicing/believing parents to get their children Baptised and have "Godparents" who are not commited Christians."
Those promises are serious stuff!

It would be even more fun to post that one if I were Jewish.

Thank you for saying that, Nellie, I agree entirely. Whether one who is not of that religion can get their head around it is beside the point.

(My post was in reply to your first post, but I also agree with the point raised in your second!)

A lot of groups and religions invent odd rules and dress codes, as following them, helps bind the group together. They also have the effect of segregating that group from the rest of society.

In response to Nellie's post, I don't think it is hypocritical. I think it is strange to want to have your child made a member of an organisation you don't support yourself. I also think it's odd to opt for a religious wedding if you don't share the beliefs. There are purely cynical reasons for having your child baptised - getting in to the local church school is one. I prefer to think that people who choose a religious ceremony do so because it has some meaning for them. At one time it was probably just to bow to convention, now it must have some other motive.

I didn't say it was anything to do with me - I am just interested in the beliefs and customs of other people. Are we only allowed to post about matters which directly affect us?
I was not married in a church and none of my children or gc are baptised. However, my grand-daughter-in-law has always been a member of her local church and I attended the wedding, because to refuse would have been rude and intolerant.
I have often broken rules which I considered unfair, obsolete, or unworkable. I think that is the way progress is made. However, I would probably be honest about it, and try not to give the appearance of keeping to the rule.

I have refused to be a god parent on more than one occasion but promised to be a special aunt / friend to the children concerned.

I think whatever religion people purport to believe /practice it seems believers cherry pick the bits they like and dismiss the ones that are inconvenient. If the believers use their religious beliefs to take a moral high ground, to make them feel superior or to look down on non-believers then yes I think it is hypocrisy to 'adapt' rules.

If people are 'secular' or cultural Muslims, Jews, Christians etc then it is just crazy customs.. like putting a tree in the living room at Christmas!

I believe people were decorating trees to celebrate the Winter Solstice long before Christianity was introduced! I am never at home at Christmas, so I don't have any say in the decorations.
I have also been asked to be a godparent, but the parents were not really churchgoers themselves - they seemed to think that a christening was just a social occasion and a chance to get more presents for the baby.
I had to explain that I could not honestly promise to look after a child's spiritual development as I am an atheist. They were puzzled that I should think it mattered.

Joining in a service in any church even with no real belief is not a problem to me. But no one should take that sort of solemn religious vow needed for christian baptism without being very committed.

When I lived in Ilford a vicar at a C of E church had commented that he had sometimes had problems pointing out to parents that they could not have their Jewish friends as God parents at the children's Christian baptism.

Nanaej, I don't think members of any religious community 'cherry pick' beliefs or practices which are inconvenient. A religious group is made up of all its members and every one will have thought about their belief and practice. Some deeply some less so, but their are huge differences of understanding and religious observance in any group. It's a matter for individuals to choose when and how they practise their religion. It's not for any of us to make a judgement about how sincere or otherwise anyone else is. Many people are seekers and continue their search throughout their lives.

I think I could look after a child's spiritual ( as opposed to religious) development as well as most Christians!

I'm sure that's true of you and many other people, petallus but the role of godparents in all the Christian churches that practice infant baptism is specifically to help the parents to bring the child up in the faith. They also have to say that they renounce evil (Satan) and that they believe in the Holy Trinity, among other things.

MiceElf I was thinking of people who attend worship regularly and say they are an adherent of a particular religion, wear symbols of that religion but whose relationships /behaviours/actions do not reflect the teachings of that religion. They are happy to argue with me about my atheism and, in some cases condemn me to hell because of my godlessness.
I also know very spiritual and religious people who do go to worship regularly and who obviously reflect the religious teaching in their daily life. Funnily enough these acquaintances rarely criticise my godlessness.

I suppose I mean what Jesus refers to in Matthew 23.5

If I remember correctly, Petallus, the vows taken by god parents refer specifically to god. I found this reminder on google:

http://www.waltonparish.org.uk/services/baptisms/becoming-a-godparent

I am not really sure what spiritual means - I love music, poetry, landscapes, people - does that make me spiritual, or just human?